Talk:Messianic

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Shouldn't there be a separate page discussing Messianic thought generally? Most religions have a messianic strain/sect/school of thought.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 22:03, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Currently Messiah, and Messianism --William Allen Simpson 00:04, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Articles to include

This is a disambiguation page. It only points to articles. If someone has written other articles that relate to "messianic" links should be listed here. If there is a specific topic you want an article for, you can request those. In Search, type in the name of the topic and press "Go". A box will pop up that there is no such article and that you can either start the article yourself or you can request the article.

When I created this disambiguation page I really hadn't checked for topics like Messianic Age or Messianic Prophecy, but I will.RickReinckens 05:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Done. --William Allen Simpson 11:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Messianic Israel Alliance

William, I don't think Messianic Israel Alliance (MIA) should be here. This is a disambiguation page, not a category page.

I have attended the largest freestanding Messianic congregation in the world (Baruch HaShem (BHS) in Dallas, Texas) for five years, I attended another (pseudo)-Messianic congregation for a year, I am the webmaster of about 6 Messianic websites, I have attended about five 20-hour Messianic yeshiva courses at BHS, I have researched Messianic Judaism extensively on the Web and I have read extensively on Messianic Judaism. I have never heard of Messianic Israel Alliance.

I don't dispute that it is Messianic and it probably belongs in Category:Messianic. But when people use the term "Messianic", they simply don't associate it specifically with MIA.

A disambigation page is not a collection of links to articles on the general topic. It is limited to "You may be thinking of this instead".

For instance, I added an article on Margaret Macdonald, the young girl who many say started the Pre-trib rapture interpretation. There is also a Scottish artist with the same name. The purpose of a disambiguation page is to clear up that type of confusion, not to list articles that deal in the same broad area.

(By the way, I am going to add a Hebrew Christianity link, since that is relevant.)

RickReinckens 05:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Every disambiguation page I have seen is limited to "You may be looking for this other meaning of the same or almost identical term." (For instance, "Messiah" instead of "Messianic".) I have not seen any that list a bunch of articles on related topics where the terms would not be confused.

The definition of "disambiguation" is "to eliminate ambiguity". "Related topics" is not the same. I don't see a problem with putting See Also or Related Topics sections at the bottom of a disambiguation page if that is an accepted Wiki style, but I still don't think that every Messianic organization should be listed in the disambiguation section. For instance, I can see a disambiguation page on Chemist or Chemistry that includes Chemical Engineer or Chemical Engineering, because many people don't realize one is science and the other is engineering. But listing American Chemists Association, American Society of Chemical Engineers, New York Chemical Engineering Professional Society, etc., in the disambiguation section would not be appropriate because no one is going to confuse Chemist with American Society of Chemical Engineers.

RickReinckens 01:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

However, you seem to be in disagreement with User:Benjamin Diffenderfer about whether this is an association or society, or a denomination that apparently separated in 1999. This page was explicitly redirected to MIA at one time. Rather than arguing about the "validity" of MIA, it just gets a link here, and readers can make up their own minds.

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Church of World Messianity

William, according to the article this is a new Japanese religion that appears to have nothing to do with either Judaism or Christianity. Do you know that this religion and/or its followers are referred to as "messianic" or is that just an assumption because the name includes a similar term? For instance, although my religion is Messianic Judaism I am a gentile. Therefore, I am Messianic but not Messianic Jewish.

I will research this, but until we can determine whether followers of this religion are referred to as "messianic", I don't think that link should be included because it is unverified information. It probably would be better in See Also.

I am still researching, and I have added to the article on Church of World Messianity. I added the part about the Messianic Age, based on an article on a website. However, that website appears to be written by a Christian. I don't know whether (a) the site author is describing the religion's concepts in Christian terms (Messianic Age) for the benefit of readers or (b) whether COWM uses the term Messianic Age.

RickReinckens 07:33, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Somebody else thought they were "Messianic", and included a link based on the word. At this page, the question is not whether that's a valid point of view. Should you wish to give a differing view, that would be on the COWM page itself. This page just links to articles.

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Format of the page

• These are "non-article" pages. That it will also be found when somebody does a search is a useful side effect.
• Indeed, I discovered this page when checking links in another.
• I've no interest here other than a better Wikipedia.
• The "most-used" meaning is listed first. I could not find a single cross-reference to these churches in existing links. They are not the most likely use.

"Messianic" is not a church, just like mosque, Islam and Moslem are not a "church". There are very few Wikipedia articles on Messianic Judaism and similar "Messianic" topics--maybe five or six at most. That is why you couldn't find a bunch of links.

RickReinckens 01:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

From my limited reading, I thought that you were referring to a "Christian" religion. Generally, "Christian" places and denominations are both called "churches", while only "Moslem" places are called "mosques", and I apologize for any misunderstanding.

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• But all the churches, even the tiniest, should be listed here to make clicking through easier for browsing readers that only type the ambiguous term "Messianic". Now, they are listed lower down. If the list gets any longer, it should be in alphabetical order.

You are confusing "churches" with "religions". Messianic is not a church or a denomination. In a listing of religions it would belong with "Protestant", "Roman Catholic", "Eastern Orthodox", "Hinduism", "Buddhism", etc., not "Presbyterian", "Methodist", etc. In this sense I would say it is not equivalent to "Judaism" because "rabbinic" Judaism (all branches of Judaism except Messianic) is absolutely adamant that they consider it not Judaism.

RickReinckens 01:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Another editor seems to disagree, saying that "Messianic Judaism" is a denomination within "Hebraic Christians" which seems to be a matter of controversy. For the purposes of this page, it doesn't matter. This is just a locator of articles.

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• There shouldn't be a "Messianic" category, as there are already related topics. Categories of "Religious faiths, traditions, and movements" should be used, and I see that it is for some. I'll fix the others.

I may mean a "subcategory". In a heirarchy, Messianic Judaism should be below "Christianity" and at the same level as Catholicism, Protestantism, etc.

RickReinckens 01:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• Meanwhile, when you create a disambiguation or redirect page, you are supposed to go through all the "what links here", and clean their links. It's an expected courtesy. That also gives an idea about what has to be on the page, since those links will give context. It's all in the Help and MoS guidelines.

Before I created this disambiguation page it was a redirect to Messianic Judaism. I checked the links and anything that pointed to Messianic I changed to point to Messianic Judaism. If I remember correctly, there were no links to "Messianic". I think there were only two articles at the time and I was the one who created the second article.

Since I just went through the pain of disambiguating them, I'm quite sure that you missed at least 100 "What links here" that long predate your change to a disambiguation page. I agree that a disambiguation page was needed. I'm just pointing out that you didn't finish all the required work. And neither did the folks that made the redirect page. :-(

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Another problem in this regard is that there are very few people who are Messianic, very few people who are interested in Messianic information and very few who are even aware that Messianic Judaism exists. Most people who are aware of the term think it is another term for the organization Jews for Jesus (but let's not go there . . .). Accordingly, most of the handful of people who are adding Messianic info to Wiki don't realize they need to put Category links, See Also, etc., at the bottom of their pages.

RickReinckens 01:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Too true. It's a learning process for all editors.

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• Some of your pages need a bit of style help, and I've done some cleanup. More will likely be needed.

I only started this recently. One problem I am having is with terminology. For instance, in these talk pages what I am calling a Category may actually be a subcategory, so people may be slightly misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. In general, when I find something significant that I didn't do before, I try to go back and correct it.

In that regard, I do have a question: When including a book title in a References section, should I use three apostrophes to show italics or should I use <cite:>?

RickReinckens 01:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

WP:CITE --William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

• You've written nice detailed articles with some verification. The community thanks you for your effort!

William Allen Simpson 11:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

---

For the record, it just took ~5 hours to work through all the links to Messianic, and disambiguate them. That's why a nice adjective already in use shouldn't be taken over for a shorthand for another concept.

-- William Allen Simpson 16:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I did not co-opt a term. There is a definite distinction between "Messianic" meaning "something related to a Messiah figure" and "Messianic" meaning "a branch of Judaism that believes Jesus is the Messiah." If anyone has a complaint that the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations, the International Messianic Jewish Alliance, etc., have no right to use the term to refer to their religion, which they have used for more than 30 years, the fight is with them, not me. I am using their terminology that is well-known to theologians and various religious groups, not mine.

As I said, before I created the disambiguation page, the Messianic page redirected to Messianic Judaism. In this regard, I think the two of us agree that the Messianic disambiguation page needs a section explaining the different meanings of the term, so people thinking of a "Messianic figure" like Adolph Hitler don't waste time looking through articles dealing with a particular religion. I'll see about addng that if there isn't something like it already.

RickReinckens 01:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. AFAIK, it wasn't you that coopted the term. The adjective was turned into a noun by some unknown person, just as "Charismatic" was coopted from an adjective to a noun by another religious sect, and that has to be reflected in the *pedia.

However, rather a lot of people still use "messianic" and "charismatic" as adjectives. I just wish the cults could have called themselves "Messianics" and "Charismatics" (nouns), it would have saved a lot of effort and misunderstandings!

Those sensible "rabbinical" Jewish folks would never make the statement "I am Reformed."

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

No definitions

This is a WP:D non-article page that should conform to the MoS:DP. The only items in the list are things that somebody might want when typing the adjective "Messianic" into a search, or when wikifying the word "messianic". I spent many hours looking up EVERY reference to this page. I know exactly which meanings are currently extant.

Based on previous use of the redirect, I've been extremely generous about having links here to your messianic articles. Had those old redirects never existed, they would not belong here. See Wikipedia:Disambiguation#What NOT to put on disambiguation pages.

I'm pretty sure that your new "List of Messianic Jewish Organizations" doesn't belong here at all, but I'm moving it down to the see also, as nothing else links to it. It probably should be linked off of your other articles, instead.

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I only added that last night, so at this point it is really a stub. I am also going to start writing to various Messianic organizations asking them to add an article on their organization. I'm thinking that it probably should wind up as either two or three separate lists, since the Congregations list will ultimately get pretty big.

RickReinckens 14:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

No point of view

There are a fair number of assertions on this page based on personal experiences. A disambiguation page is not a place for discussions about what constitutes a valid religion, a denomination, or an organization. We do not decide which religious ideology is more common. And to make that abundantly clear, I've now sorted all religious entries alphabetically.

All "person" entries belong in the "Messiah" page (not even the "Messiah (disambiguation)" page), and there certainly shouldn't be an indication that some were "pretenders" here. That is not the purpose of a disambiguation page.

--William Allen Simpson 12:13, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

The terms "Messianic pretender" and "Messianic figure" are valid and distinct terms with meanings different from "Messiah", just as "Father" and "Father figure" are two distinct things. I didn't want to put it here due to "political correctness" concerns, but Adolph Hitler was a messianic figure, who claimed that he would bring Germans out of national humiliation and disgrace and poverty brought on by Europe's demands for reparations after World War I. Let's be realistic. If I put anything like that about Adolph Hitler in the Messiah page, we both know it would be deleted immediately by someone.

"Pretender to the throne" is a term with a distinct meaning similar to "Messianic pretender". If I can't use undisputed examples because someone might get concerned about POV regarding persons totally forgotten by history except for one sentence in the Bible that clearly indicates the person was not legit, how can the term ever be defined on Wiki? Is Wiki so concerned about POV, for instance, that Adolph Hitler can't be described as a tyrant or a dictator, or Charles Manson can't be described as a murderer because those are "points of view" and someone might disagree?

The problem with creating "Messianic pretender" or "Messianic figure" articles is that they would basically contain one-sentence definitions.

When I put the Messianic figure item the reason I linked to the Messiah page is that although that article doesn't use the term "Messianic figure", the first paragraph of the article does clearly indicate that the term is often used in that sense. If I don't explain on the disambiguation page what "Messianic figure" means, I think that virtually anyone following the link will think, "Somebody mistakenly linked to the Messiah article. I know what a "Messiah" is." I think a lot of people would not understand that the link is to the page because the page also describes "messianic figure".

Regarding NPOV, how about something like, "Some would view Moses, Jesus, Joan of Arc, etc., as messianic figures?" Actually, I would like to include people (other than Adolph Hitler) who are clearly not religious-related, because the term is not limited to religions and doing so would indicate that, but I can't think of anyone else. (Also, if I could find several such examples, it would justify a separate article.)

(You forgot a signature. RickReinckens)

(heavy sigh) How do I explain this.... Editting disambiguation requires a certain mind set. There's no POV, because there's never substantive information. Putting it in this less noticed page because you think that it might be deleted in another page is especially egregious.

There were no articles that I found mentioning Messianic pretender and pointing here. And since pretender is a loaded word, it requires explanation anyway. It just doesn't belong here.

Messianic figure already redirects to Messiah. Those pages will never accidentally point here, so there is no need to disambiguate them here. If anything, they would be described and disambiguated there!

William Allen Simpson 18:40, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, in the short time I have been contributing, what I have seen is that any addition that is not a minor addition to an unimportant topic turns into a huge debate, often led by people with no knowledge of the topic. I previously stopped contributing to Intelligent Design, Messianic Judaism and Good Ol' Boy because of the debates and I am pretty much finished with Juris Doctor too.

Quite frankly, I don't have the time to waste getting into these stupid side debates. Enjoy your editing. I am through with making any substantive contributions to Wiki. I wouldn't mind if the people involved in the debate were knowledgeable about the topic, but when people are saying that established phrases can't be used because in that person's opinion one word in a phrase is "loaded", that is just idiotic. I suppose I can't say "oxymoron", I have to say "oxy-person-of-mild-mental-retardation-with-a mental-age-of-from-7-to-12 years"? The term is "messianic pretender". I didn't make it up.

So, make whatever changes you want. Because of you and a few others I am done trying to help.

RickReinckens 05:12, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that, as I'd thought you'd make more substantive contributions elsewhere. But those things are not appropriate in a disambiguation page.

Also, conforming to NPOV is hard for many folks. Political correctness is fairly important when read by folks from 100s of ethnicities. I've been involved in editting international publications for decades, so I've a fairly good feel for the form.

--William Allen Simpson 09:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC)