Talk:Muhammad Ali vs. Sonny Liston

Untitled

I'd appreciate it if you could get some pictures of Muhammed Ali's daughter as a boxer. Thank you!

What does that have to do with Ali-Liston?

Attendance Numbers

In the Ali vs Liston article it states that the number in attendance was 2,434 but in the Liston page it states something different. Which one is correct?

I dont remember the exact number but that seems about right. It was the lowest attendance for any Heavyweight championship fight... because it was held in an auditorium

Ali-Liston I

"this view is unproven, as the fight was tied on the judges' scorecards after six rounds"

I removed this part. Fighters have no idea what the scoring is in a fight, and it was clear to everyone at that point that Liston was losing and was headed towards a defeat.

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I fail to see what is less than neutral about this rather good article. The fights in question were extremely controversial; in fact they remain two of the most debated fights in ring history. The article is a good summary and avoids taking a firm position one way or the other. I think the bulk of opinion these days is that Liston threw both fights, but that is by no means a universal opinion. Whether he could have won if he wanted to, and why he threw the fights is a whole different debate. Was he just intimidated by Clay/Ali's bluster? By Muslims? By the mob? Also note; Liston had never lost, never so much as been off his feet in the ring, he had latley knocked out 25 fighters including world champion Floyd Paterson. After the Clay/Ali losses he went on to knock out nine more in a row and thirteen out of the next fifteen, including Chuck Wepner who Ali could not knock out. Liston may, in fact, have been the best fighter Clay/Ali ever faced. Clay/Ali was good, but that that good? A first round knock out? Welllll .. maybe .... Nothing totally makes sense in these two fights. However you look at it, something was wrong.

Taunts?

The photo is captioned "Ali taunts a canvas ridden Liston" but nothing in the article says anything about any taunting. Was this the fight were Ali was standing over his opponent saying "What's my name? What's my name?" Hi There 01:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

He wasn't taunting Liston he was telling him to get up and fight. It was the Ernie Terrell fight that Ali kept asking "whats my name".

Fair use rationale for Image:Aliliston1program.jpeg

Image:Aliliston1program.jpeg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Phantom Punch

It could be pointed out as well, most pro-phantom fans may have only seen Ali's left hand, missing a falling Liston (along with not seeing the connecting right hand). GoodDay 20:26, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The claim quoted in Felix's book about the punch lifting Liston's foot off the ground is just not true. It's clear in this video that Liston's left foot is already off the ground, in mid-step toward Ali, before the punch lands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.208.53 (talk) 17:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I've Got A Secret

Why so much about a tv-series in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.93.4.56 (talk) 01:57, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

The fight was highlighted in Episode 409 of the TV series [Mad Men]. In reply to the comment above, the fight has a level of social/cultural significance that references to the fight in books, movies, TV, etc. would seem to be appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.126.68.30 (talk) 14:15, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem is Mad Men is of no comparable significance and any attempt made to cover all the places this event is mentioned in books, TV, ect it would be hundreds of pages long. It's one of the most important sporting events of the 20th century. Mad Men is just another TV show, and I agree there's too much about I've got a Secret here. Jackhammer111 (talk) 04:51, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Weights of the fighters

Can any one provide the weights of the fighters at the time of these fights please?Andrew144 (talk) 16:30, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Introduction

Could someone provide a more complete introduction at the top of the page? For someone who is unfamiliar with boxing it says almost nothing, and one shouldn't have to read the entire article just to get a general understanding of what this is all about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.247.237.24 (talk) 06:06, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Paul Gallender

Removed the entries by Paul Gallender as they are a clear conflict of interest. 98.209.42.117 (talk) 03:19, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

This is one of the most un-wikilike pages I've ever read. Glaringly, the overuse of Gallender was obvious to me long before I read "Author Paul Gallender claims that members of the Nation of Islam kidnapped Liston's wife, Geraldine, and Liston's son, Bobby. Liston was told to lose the fight to Ali or he would never see his family again." Who gives a crap what Gallender claims if there not supporting evidence that the claim has the slightest relation with reality? It's really an outrage that experienced wiki editors should be embarrassed by. What I quoted should remove all his credibility as a source. I agree that all of Gallender's entries should be removed. It appears someone undid the removals without comment. The page is way to long as it is. This would be a good start on parring it down. Jackhammer111 (talk) 04:37, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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More References

https://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/25/specials/ali-upset.html Soham321 (talk) 06:32, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Scorecards?

Okay, this is happening repeatedly - folks keep adding the following:

At that point the bout was equal on the official scorecards of the referee and two judges.

I went through that source, and it doesn't appear to support the claim; I've been removing this claim (with information in the comments section) but don't want to get dinged for 3RR. I could be misinterpreting, so I'd love another opinion. Anyone? NekoKatsun (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

References

Use of the phrase "phantom punch" and uncited quotes

I have tagged this as needing citations for the uncited quotes allegedly from Jose Torres and Jim Murray (sportswriter).

I arrived at this article after seeing on UK TV (Sky Sports) an advertisement using images of Clay's fight with the narrator stating "...it became known as 'The Phantom Punch'." This perplexed me greatly as we knew it as something entirely different in England. The fight was screened live by satellite on BBC TV in the middle of the night.

These weasel words 'it became known as' suggest the advertising agency used Wikipedia content during research, and that the phrase was later than the events.

The actual phrase was introduced into what was a totally unreferenced Wikipedia article by an American IP address, September 27 2005, changing from "the ghost punch fight" in this diff.

Is there any historical, hard-published evidence that this phrase involving the word 'phantom' actually existed contemporaneous with the event? I have checked a few period refs, some were deadlinked with only one - Sports Illustrated - at Wayback machine so far. I need much more time which will not be for some months yet. I will also have to try to find scans of UK newspapers showing the phrase I recall the UK press using.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 11:35, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

A fantastically good article

Holy Cow, this is good article. My sincere congrats to the editors.

Also I can't believe that this article is rated C-Class. WTF.

Anyway, thanks for a great read!

Nemonoman (talk) 01:48, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

PS. Yes, I know it could use some more inline citations -- but it is a fantastic read.