Talk:Soviet–Afghan War

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Remove KHAD from paramilitaries[edit]

KHAD was the official intelligence agency of Afghanistan at the time, it wasn’t a paramilitary. The Afghan Army had their own intelligence branch named KhAD-e-Nezaami but that still wasn’t a paramilitary. AfghanParatrooper1989 (talk) 07:17, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't KhAD have its own Special Forces Units though Fortnitegamer3432 (talk) 13:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Does that mean it’s a paramilitary? AfghanParatrooper1989 (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spliting proposal[edit]

There are reasons we should split this article into another page about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. There is already a page for the withdrawal from Afghanistan, and a "very long" notification at the top. Is there any reason we should not take this course of action that I am overlooking? DementiaGaming (talk) 23:54, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

How would this benefit the encyclopedia? The substantive reason for splitting a section from an article into a new article is because that section has become excessively large and the split would lead to a substantive reduction in the size of this article. At face value, I am not seeing this to be the case here. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:35, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the US not at all included in terms of the sides in the conflict?[edit]

The Mujahideen were funded in what was the most expensive operation in CIA history and was basically what led the Soviets to invade and yet thrle US and CIA isnt included in the sides in the conflict? 2600:1006:B147:CDA:E1A4:D260:546:71AB (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you should ask User:Cinderella157? Eastfarthingan (talk) 21:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article certainly mentions the role of US and the CIA. However, I donot see that there are WP:RSs that would call the US a belligerent in the war? This would be the reason why the US is not listed as a belligerent in the infobox.
They were not a belligerent but were heavily involved (along with Pakistan and UK) in covert military support, there are separate articles about these too. I think a consensus needs to be reached rather than state a 'depracted' opinion. Eastfarthingan (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Deprecation of "supported by" is not opinion, it was arrived at through an RfC at the template talk page and is linked in the template documentation. The close does allow for an affirmative consensus (ie an RfC) that would allow and exception to the deprecation. If that is what you think should happen .... Cinderella157 (talk) 14:10, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry what I meant was Military support - it gives a better understanding, and isn't as vague Supported by. I can see why the former has been depracted given the many articles that have it and conatin large lists of countries/combatants etc. So yes I think for Military support a consensus should be made . Eastfarthingan (talk) 15:30, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In terms of the spirit and intent of the RfC that deprecated the use (here is the link), I don't see a distinction between "supported by" and "military support". I am not standing in your way as far as opening an RfC goes but I would suggest that the RfC should be explicit as to which countries are added and why (and why no other countries would be added). Before we go down this path, please consider this version of the article. You might also consider this RfC. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Units involved section[edit]

Can someone add the Afghan Armed Forces in the units involved section (preferably above paramilitaries)? It was not just Afghan paramilitaries that fought the war, but the Afghan Armed Forces as well. AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 20:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maoist mujahideen fighters[edit]

Can we please add Maoist fighters back to the infobox of the page, since Wikipedia is supposed to cover all details of a war? It was removed for very shaky reasons, the idea being that Maoists didn't play any actual role and the one major Maoist leader (Majid Kalakani) died in 1980. But that's not true. There were multiple Maoist factions, specifically ALO, SAMA and AMFF, and several major Maoist leaders such as Faiz Ahmad and Mulavi Dawood. They were killed in 1986, but were still leaders in the war up to that point, and the Maoists were an active (though considerably less so compared to the Islamists) presence in the war.

I don't necessarily believe they need to be a separate entry from the Afghan Mujahideen section, as that's an all-encompassing title, but they can be included as part of them. How about something like this?

Soviet–Afghan War
Part of the Cold War and the Afghan conflict


Date24 December 1979 – 15 February 1989
(9 years, 1 month, 3 weeks and 1 day)
Location
Afghanistan
Result Afghan Mujahideen victory
Belligerents
 Soviet Union
 Afghanistan		 Afghan Mujahideen
Afghan Interim Government (from 1988)
Commanders and leaders
Soviet Union:
Afghanistan:
Sunni Mujahideen:
Shia Mujahideen:
Maoists:
Units involved
Soviet Armed Forces
KGB
Afghan Armed Forces
Paramilitaries:
 Sunni Mujahideen
Factions:
Shia Mujahideen
Factions:
Maoists
Factions:
Strength
Soviet Union:
  • 620,000 total personnel[7] 115,000 (1986 estimate)[8] 120,000 (1987 estimate)[9]
Afghanistan:
  • 250,000 total personnel (1989, including Sarandoy and Khad)[10]
 Mujahideen:
Casualties and losses
Total: 86,470–98,017
Soviet Union:
  • 14,453[14]–26,000[15] killed
    • 9,500 killed in combat[14]
    • 4,000 died from wounds[14]
    • 1,000 died from disease and accidents[14]
  • 53,753 wounded[14]
  • 264 missing
  • 451 aircraft lost (including 333 helicopters)
  • 147 tanks lost
  • 1,314 IFVs/APCs lost
  • 433 artillery guns and mortars lost
  • 11,369 cargo and fuel tanker trucks lost
Afghanistan:
 Total: 162,579–192,579+
Mujahideen:
  • 150,000–180,000 casualties (tentative estimate)[22]
    • 75,000–90,000 killed
Pakistan:

Total killed: 80,775–95,775+
Civilian casualties (Afghan):
1,500,000–2,000,000 killed[25][26]
3+ million wounded[27]
5+ million externally displaced
2+ million internally displaced
Combatant deaths:
More than 562,995 killed[28]
Total deaths:
Approximately 3 million killed[29]

Nights At Nyte (talk) 07:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This works amazingly. Thank you! AfghanParatrooper19891 (talk) 13:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "The top leader is believed to be Maulvi Mohammad Umar Amir, who was born in the village of Nodeh in Kandhar, and is now settled in Singesar. He was wounded four times in the battles against the Soviets and his right eye was permanently damaged. He took part in the "Jehad" under the late Hizb-e-Islami Khalis Commander Nek Mohammad". Indian Defence Review. 10: 33. 1995.
  2. ^ a b Goodson 2011, p. 190.
  3. ^ a b Goodson 2011, p. 61.
  4. ^ a b Goodson 2011, p. 189.
  5. ^ a b Goodson 2011, p. 62.
  6. ^ Goodson 2011, p. 63.
  7. ^ Krivosheev, p. 365
  8. ^ Nyrop, Richard F.; Seekins, Donald M. (January 1986). Afghanistan: A Country Study (PDF). Washington, DC: United States Government Printing Office. pp. xviii–xxv. Archived from the original (PDF) on 3 November 2001.
  9. ^ Borshchevskaya, Anna (2022). "2: The Soviet Union in the Middle East and the Afghanistan Intervention". Putin's War in Syria. 50 Bedford Square, London, WC1B 3DP, UK: I. B. Tauris. p. 24. ISBN 978-0-7556-3463-7. By 1987, the number of Soviet troops reached 120,000.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)
  10. ^ Katz, Mark N. (9 March 2011). "Middle East Policy Council | Lessons of the Soviet Withdrawal from Afghanistan". Mepc.org. Retrieved 28 July 2011.
  11. ^ Rischard, Maxime. "Al Qa'ida's American Connection". Global-Politics.co.uk. Archived from the original on 21 November 2011. Retrieved 28 July 2011.
  12. ^ "Soviet or the USA the strongest" (in Norwegian). Translate.google.no. Archived from the original on 17 March 2019. Retrieved 28 July 2011.
  13. ^ "Afghanistan hits Soviet milestone – Army News". Armytimes.com. Archived from the original on 25 May 2012. Retrieved 15 February 2012.
  14. ^ a b c d e Cite error: The named reference vfw.org was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  15. ^ Peter Beaumont (18 October 2009). "Same old mistakes in new Afghan war". Guardian.
  16. ^ "Reid, Ogden, (16 May 1882–4 Jan. 1947), Owner and Editor of the New York Herald Tribune", Who Was Who, Oxford University Press, 2007-12-01, doi:10.1093/ww/9780199540884.013.u230900, retrieved 2024-03-02
  17. ^ SIPRI Yearbook 1989 World Armaments and Disarmament. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. 1989. p. 166.
  18. ^ "Reid, Ogden, (16 May 1882–4 Jan. 1947), Owner and Editor of the New York Herald Tribune", Who Was Who, Oxford University Press, 2007-12-01, doi:10.1093/ww/9780199540884.013.u230900, retrieved 2024-03-02
  19. ^ SIPRI Yearbook 1989 World Armaments and Disarmament. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. 1989. p. 166.
  20. ^ "Reid, Ogden, (16 May 1882–4 Jan. 1947), Owner and Editor of the New York Herald Tribune", Who Was Who, Oxford University Press, 2007-12-01, doi:10.1093/ww/9780199540884.013.u230900, retrieved 2024-03-02
  21. ^ SIPRI Yearbook 1989 World Armaments and Disarmament. Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. 1989. p. 166.
  22. ^ Giustozzi, Antonio (2000). War, politics and society in Afghanistan, 1978–1992. Hurst. p. 115. ISBN 978-1-85065-396-7. A tentative estimate for total mujahideen losses in 1980–92 may be in the 150–180,000 range, with maybe half of them killed.
  23. ^ Markovskiy, Victor (1997). "Жаркое небо Афганистана: Часть IX" [Hot Sky of Afghanistan: Part IX]. Авиация и время [Aviation and Time] (in Russian) p.28
  24. ^ Weisman, Steven R. (2 May 1987). "AFGHANS DOWN A PAKISTANI F-16, SAYING FIGHTER JET CROSSED BORDER". The New York Times. Retrieved 2 October 2014.
  25. ^ Klass 2018, p. 129.
  26. ^ Goodson 2011, p. 5.
  27. ^ Hilali, A. (2005). US–Pakistan relationship: Soviet Intervention in Afghanistan. Burlington, VT: Ashgate Publishing Co. (p. 198)ISBN 0-7546-4220-8
  28. ^ Cite error: The named reference 562k was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  29. ^ James Joes, Anthony (2010). "4: Afghanistan: End of the Red Empire". Victorious Insurgencies: Four Rebellions that Shaped Our World. The University Press of Kentucky. p. 211. ISBN 978-0-8131-2614-2. Late in 1988, diplomats and international relief workers estimated that 3 million Afghan men, women and children had died as a direct result of the war
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