Talk:New Zealand English/Archive 1

IPA would be fine if every computer could cope with it—it appears as a string of little squares on mine. (Copey)

Incidentally, does anyone know why this article isn't listed in the alphabetical list at All articles? Copey 2 03:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC) (=Copey)

Possible copyright violation

Take a look at this page: http://new-zealand.asinah.net/en/wikipedia/n/ne/new_zealand_english.html

This article seems to have started as a copy of the page linked above. That's bad because the page in question includes this text: "Copyright 1995 - 2004 United Dragon Holdings Inc. All Rights Reserved."

We're not talking about the same ideas. We're talking about paragraphs word for word, even including links.

Maybe the non-Wiki site stole our content? Or are we using it in violation of their rights?

If you look closely at the small text at the bottom of the page, you will see "All text is available under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License.This article courtesy of Wikipedia.org" --They are copying from us, not vice versa. Their copyright is somewhat misleading, as the most they can claim copyright for is the layout and web design.older≠wiser 21:43, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

FWIW, the site was already listed on Copies of Wikipedia content (medium degree of compliance). I added a few comments, as some of the info did not seem to apply anymore. older≠wiser 21:58, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

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However, this American is going to remain unconvinced until you lazy .au and .nz sods get off your duffs and document them here.

or even Australian and New Zealander... the extra typing won't cost you any more... :S Most Australians can pick the Texan, Californian, New York Jewish, and New York Ebonics accents (for instance) by ear. The differences between Australian and New Zealand English accents aren't any less extensive. The problem, I think, is that most Americans have not heard too much of the New Zealand accent. The main difference between Australian and New Zealand English is the presence in New Zealand English of stressed schwa, which doesn't appear in most other accents of English. Australian English has a lax front close vowel instead, that of the British English "pin". pfnewman

OK, smartarse (or smartass, if you can't cope with alternate spellings), I've made a start . . . Seriously, though, it's not that hard to pick. It's as least as distinctive as, say, Californian and New York accents. --Robert Merkel

Stressed schwa isn't really an accurate description of the the vowel in pin. It's higher and further forward—the German pronunciation of i in wissen sounds identical to my Kiwi ears, as does the vowel y in Ukrainian buty (Cyrillic character same as Russian i). The unstressed sound has certainly merged with schwa—we pronounce patted and pattered identically. Schwa is closer to Australian attempts to pronounce the NZ vowel. To my ears, our vowel in pig and sing (i.e. with following g or ng) is closer to the way other English speakers pronounce them, though not the vowel in pick. Incidentally, although the much higher sound of the Australian vowel is the one thing above all that identifies him here, I have met a number of Aussies whose pronunciation seems closer to ours. I have met one whose accent I couldn't detect at all, even after he told me he was Australian—and that he found some kiwis hard to understand!—Copey

I think people have done a good job on this page. I would add some borrowed Maori words myself but it is a bit of challenge for a Brit to turn a list of borrowed words from a page like this into something that does not invalidate the author's copyright. -- Artistole

I've added a description of the pronunciation of "dance". Someone should check whether my description matches the samples I've uploaded to "Pronunciation" at http://briefcase.yahoo.com/careyevans/. --Carey Evans

There's lots more material here now. Still to add is some mention of non-Maori New Zealand words, like bach and crib, though this is more difficult for me since I don't have the perspective to know which are actually unique to NZ. If someone adds the words, I'll define them. --Carey Evans

'Port' is only used for schoolbag in some Australian states (e.g. I think Queensland.) In NSW and Victoria (Hey! -and Tassie!!! - MB) (and W.A. - Mark Ryan) people say schoolbag, same as Kiwis do. -- SJK

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Taken this from list of words unique to NZ and australia, since it's also used in Britain -- AdamW

mate: Buddy or pal, the same as Australian English.

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An anonymous user writes:

This is incorrect - the sound is much better represented as "darnce".

I'm not so sure about this; some dialects of English would roll that R, and NZers hardly even pronouce R's when they are there. OTOH, I don't think I pronounce "pasta" properly, either.

I'll try again with "car", which most pages seem to use for that vowel sound.

--Carey Evans, 2002-02-03

"Taught properly" indeed! Chance vs charnce is optional in Australian English. Charnce is used by nearly all South Australians, most denizens of Toorak and Vaucluse and Paddington, and a good smattering of others from all over, NSW in particular. Rough guess: 70% of Australians say "chance". Yes, and some of us even had educations! Oh, and one more difference in usage to list: dairy vs milk bar.

It's interesting to see how many words Oz and Kiwi English have in common - more than I'd have thought until I stopped to ponder and read the examples in this and a couple of related entries. It's not so surprising that words like bush have made the trans-Tasman journey, but it is surprising to realise how many Maori words are quite familiar to this Aussie boy. Tannin

I've made some changes to the "chance" section; please make any more changes you feel are necessary. I'll have to think about how to add dairy vs. milk bar - how does it relate to the existing entry? In NZ, the word means what the existing article talks about, but is reminiscent of the '60s. -- carey

My apologies. That comment of mine about chanve vs crarnce was largely tongue in cheek. Still I think your revision is an improvement just the same. Tannin

Most people I know in South Australia say dance with a long 'a' similar to the NZ accent, in fact when I moved to Queensland for work I was asked if I was a Kiwi. When I was growing up we called our swimming clothing bathers or swimming trunks. I remember friends asking me if I had my trunks with me..

Ozdaren 15:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

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Re: Swimming costume. In the southern states of Austraila, "cossie" is understood but never used. The term "bathers" refers to the bathing costumes of both men and women, and includes specific types such as Speedos and bikinis.

New Zealand English usage

Can somebody tell me the origins of 2 specific usages:-

[1]....many Kiwis, especially in the rural sector, will nearly always answer a question with a contradiction, e.g.

[Q]"do you think this horse is a good bet?"

[A]...yeah, no...she's a good bet"

Why say "Yes" immediately followed by a "No".

[2]....many Kiwis ask a question twice, e.g.

"..are you going to the City, are you?"

Why say "are you" twice?

thanks

Meaning 'Yes', I acknowledge your queastion, I am considering it .... and the answer is 'No'

This usage appeared about five years ago among the yuppies and has since spread thoughout the country, urban and rural areas equally. However I am not sure that it is a New Zealand phenomenom; is it not also used in other English speaking countries. Personally I find it rather irritating and hope it proves to be ephemeral.

This usage has been around for much more than five years and certainly not just "yuppies." - Tm19

With regard to your second question. I have not noticed that at all in quite that form. However questions are often finished with 'eh?'

"".. are you going to the city, eh?"

I think the 'eh" is a sort of verbal question mark with the same function as "ka" in Japanese.

Hope that helps you ping 09:12, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

When I heard someone say that NZers were the only people who said "Yeah, no", I immediately thought, "What a load of rubbish. We don't say that." Then I thought about a bit more and realised, "Yeah, nah, we do!" And not only in response to a question. However, I have heard non-NZers do it too, so it's not just us. I don't know why I say it. It might be related to "No, that's right"! Nurg 10:30, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

With regard to the second of the two questions earlier, I point out that the question is not "are you going to the city, eh?" but "you're going the city, eh?", though in context the you're can be omitted (thus "going to the city, eh?"). The "eh?" is never pronounced with a rise of pitch towards the end, it is only used for confirmation. The question isn't asked twice. Compare:

• the movie was awesome, wasn't it?
• the movie was awesome, eh?

That is the usage of "eh?". Neonumbers

Are NZers the only people to use "no..yeah?" Maybe they are in English, but the Germans use it also nicht ja? Very much doubt there's any connection, though. Grutness|^hello? 07:29, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What makes the NZ usage distinct is that it is fairly widespread. However, I have noticed it more among male/rural/blue collar. - Tm19

re: the eh at end of sentences, ive lived in NZ all my life and always thought that it was more of an aye, not so much an 'e' soundItsawayoflife 09:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)its a way of life

Kiwifruit

So what do New Zealanders/Kiwis call the kiwifruit? China gooseberry? jengod 08:01, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)

kiwifruit of course, after all we invented them. ping 08:05, 16 Jan 2004 (UTC)

In the 50s and 60s we called them Chinese gooseberries. At some point in the late 60s or early 70s some marketing board decided we were going to call them kiwifruit. Same thing happened a little later with tree tomatoes, which became tamarillos—Copey

Wait. I must be dumb. Is this part of the article a joke on ignorant merkins?: "The use of kiwi to refer to kiwifruit is not part of New Zealand English and will irritate many New Zealanders."

They call it the 'kiwifruit', but never a 'kiwi'. Morwen 08:13, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)

Aha. It all becomes clear. :) Thanks NZ & Goodnight. jengod 08:15, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)

Reminiscent of old TV1 - the goodnight kiwi :) Grutness...wha? 07:30, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and New Zealanders don't call New Zealanders Kiwis very often either. It's mostly a term used by ads, television anchors, and friendly foreigners. Ben Arnold 13:37, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Yeah right.

I'd be interested to know where Ben Arnold lives. Kiwi for New Zealander is common enough in Dunedin.—Copey

kiwis call themselves kiwisItsawayoflife 09:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)itsawayoflife

Sou' Wester

The page likens Swanndri (NZ) to Driza-Bone (Oz), saying they are the quintessential back-country farmer's jacket of each country, a woollen shirt and oilskin jacket respectively. The Sou' Wester oilskin coat in NZ is the same as the Driza-Bone, not the Swanndri. Sou' Westers are still widely used, especially on horseback . Moriori 22:42, Jan 26, 2004 (UTC)

Comparing Swanndri against Drizabone is more to do with culture than language—they're not different words for the same thing. The Drizabone in NZ is a knee- or calf-length coat rather than a jacket—unless the word jacket can refer to longer garments in other dialects. Both words are trade-names in any case. The original Swanndri (I've occasionally heard "Swanny") was manufactured in Waitara, Taranaki by John Mack & Co, though I think it was later taken over by a larger company. I doubt that the word was extended to other brands. I'm not sure if John Mack still exists.—Copey, Jan 19, 2006

What about the "Affco Nightie'? Is it widespread enough to be worth a mention? ping 08:24, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The what?

Plastic meatworks issue raincoat? There are various different brands of oilskin "parkas" popular in NZ - a top-end example equivalent to Driza-Bone in its being sold in trendy city shops (as opposed to just being sold in farm or maritime supply stores) is Backhouse from Wanganui.

JohnGH 01:58, 04 Jan 2006 (GMT) :o)

Coming from South Australia the most common name I have heard for an oiled water-proof jacket/coat is an oilskin coat or even stockman's coat. driza-bone is a brand name. RM Williams is located in Prospect an inner Adelaide Suburb and of course they don't use the other company's brand name. Sou'wester would be considered old fashioned (the sort of thing your grandparents might wear). Ozdaren 15:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Milkbar

What the hell is a "milkbar" supposed to be, in Australia? Is it a dairy?Lacrimosus 02:56, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

A milkbar is a small convenience store where you can buy things like chips (both the hot and cold varieties), newspapers, drinks, pies and other assorted things. They used to sell milkshakes too, though many who still call themselves milkbars dont.

See here milk bar. Asa01 22:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Its used only in Victoria. In SA, they are called "delis" Frances76 05:53, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Use of Kia ora

I deleted the last sentence from:

""Kia Ora", literally "be healthy", is now a standard New Zealand greeting. In Māori situations it is often used after someone has spoken meaning "Have you got that?" or possibly "Do you agree with me?" but this has not extended to general use."

It is used by listeners to acknowledge or support a speaker in Maori situations. Actually I'm not sure it's a standard New Zealand greeting either given the current kerfuffle over its use on the tv news. Nurg 11:13, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Firstly, yes it IS widely "used by listeners to acknowledge or support a speaker", and not only in "Maori situations". Do you want to add that to the article? Secondly Nurg, it is indeed a standard greeting in New Zealand, and I venture to say that tourists hear that particular phrase, and remember it, more thay any other specific term of greeting. You want to include that too?

Yeah, absolutely. I heard Kia ora throughout my visit to NZ, and not only in touristy situations. older≠wiser 18:15, Oct 29, 2004 (UTC)

Milk/Mulk

Put in a little bit about this phenomenon of the 'l' changing to a 'w' and also the 'i' or 'iu' becoming a 'u' sound as in build (buwd). Don't know how common it is in New Zealand other than Auckland mainly with the younger generation although not limited to and usually only people in south Aucks. Although it's little rough and not using correct terminology.--Hekaz 11:18, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the l-dropping phenomenon, which I've heard even among educated kiwis, arises from the fact that in New Zealand English, lip-rounded vowels are pronounced differently if l follows. The vowel in school is a high back vowel, while that in scoot is a high central one. Similarly, the diphthong in coal consists of a middle back vowel gliding into a high back one, while that in coat consists of a low to lower-mid central vowel gliding into a high central one. If the l is dropped, the vowel sound still conveys the impression of a following dark l, even to the ears of a non-l-dropping kiwi. In these instances, l is dropped rather than replaced with w. When l follows a non-lip-rounded vowel, l-droppers replace it with a high back lip-rounded vowel sound. It is probably misleading to represent this as w, as the consonantal w does not involve the raising of the back of the tongue in NZ English. —Copey

NZ English vs. Australian English

New Zealand English close to Australian English?? Really? They're completely different, or does it just sound like that to me because I'm a New Zealander? Neonumbers 09:04, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The sound different to me also but Northern Hemisphere English speakers insist that they sound very similar. I guess we have to learn to live with that. ping 07:14, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, no, it just sounds like that because you're a New Zealander. You'd feel the same way, though, if you were an Aussie like me. The only true answer is that you're both right and wrong at the same time. AusE and NZE are completely different to each other, this is true.

However, when compared to other dialects the similarities are obvious. This is true not only even they're compared to Northern Hemisphere English but also to South African English.

To use a analogy, compare a tuatara to a goanna. They're completely different, right. Then compare these two to a springbok, a bulldog, a salmon and an eagle. You see what I'm getting at. - Jim

When you go to the US, most Americans anywhere in the US will assume what you are speaking is a variant of British English because from the point of view of families of American English (General American, Bostonian, New York, Texan, Californian, Deep South, etc), New Zealand English as it spoken whether in Auckland, Canterbury, or Taranaki is extremely close to Received Pronunciations. Try living in the US for a month and watch only the alphabet networks and then listen to speeches from Helen Clark or Michael Cullen, you will think they are Britons.

Now given that New Zealand English is perceived as indistinguishable from standard Received Pronunciation, how much easier is it to confuse New Zealand and Australian English? --JNZ 08:24, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

You only think that because you are a NZer. I'm Australian, and to me the NZ accent (even newsreaders) sounds completely different from UK Received Pronunciation! Asa01 09:50, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

NZE and AusE are generally only distinguishable by antipodeans data. The similarities between NZE and AusE seem to partially reflect that they split from other englishes at a similar time. There is some really interesting ongoing exploration of such questions at Canterbury. --Limegreen 10:55, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

As for newsreaders, it depends entirely on their age. New Zealand dropped the RP requirements for them 20-30 years later than australia. Thus, their are a few vintage newsreaders with very nice vowels.--Limegreen 08:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I think most Americans, Canadians, or Asians watching Judy Bailey reading news would have thought she were a Briton and spoke with a strong generic southeastern English accent (not necessarily RP). Simon Dallow's accent is easier to differentiate from generic British since he speaks "show-en" which is definitely not British.

In fact, it seems RNZ has turned the clock back now that their newsreaders sound a lot more like the BBC World Service newscasters than they were in the 1990s. Try listen to RNZI news and they will sound very similar to the Beeb to an unsuspecting American ear.--JNZ 07:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, Until I moved to NZ I had great difficulty telling the two apart (and my dad was a Kiwi). Now, though, I find it very easy to tell whether someone's from Breesbin or Wulinkton. The only Aussies I might confuse with Kiwis accent-wise are those from SA or TAS, and even then there are fairly strong differences. It's a "17 eskimo words for snow" thing, though. I couldn't tell Wisconsin and Texas accents apart, but I'm sure your average midwesterner could. And I'm still amazed that people in NZ can't tell Mancunian from Scouse. Grutness...wha? 08:47, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Maori pronunciation

The example list of accurate Māori pronunciations compared to Anglicised ones is ambiguous. The columns need to be labelled! 203.220.42.164 08:22, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed Kawarau's ka-worra pronunciation from this list, because it isn't a false anglicised pronunciation - it's a southern Maori dialect pronunciation. The spelling with the final "u" resulted from it being written down by Scots - it probably should have been spelt Kawara. Grutness|^hello?

There's still a distinctly non-maori sound to the very short o (hot) that you hear in kaworra down that way. dramatic 08:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That's part of the southern dialect - compare the one in the (real) pronunciation of Oamaru. Remember the Scots also misheard "Kirimoko" as "Kilmog", again with the "hot" O. Compare also Hokitika's pronunciation. The O can be short in Southern Maori. Grutness|^hello? 23:48, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Vocabulary

h2g2 has quite an extensive list at [1] - could be a basis for a few extra entries in our list. dramatic 08:42, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Organisation of article

I can't help but wondering if the sections in this article are the right way round. An article on NZ english starts with a detailed discussion of Maori, then goes into Maori influence (which is what the previous sections were about). I'd keep the Maori section near the top, and would also split the first section (i.e., the introductory four paragraphs) up, and suggest the following reorder:

Introduction:

New Zealand English is the dialect of English spoken in New Zealand, often referred to within New Zealand as Newzild.

New Zealand English is close to Australian English in pronunciation, but has several subtle differences often overlooked by people from outside the country. Most of these differences show New Zealand English to have more affinity with the English of southern England than Australian English does. Several of the differences also show the influence of Maori speech.

1. Spelling (using all except the first sentence of introduction para.2 and expanding from there)
2. Maori influence (starting with what is now para. 3 of the introduction)
   1. Vocabulary
   2. Pronunciation of Maori place names
3. Unique New Zealand English vocabulary
   1. Unique phrases
4. Differences from British English
   1. Additional Schwa
   2. Distinction between /E@/ and /I@/
   3. Rising Inflection
   4. Use of "She" as third person neuter
5. Differences from Australian English
   1. Short i
   2. Short e
   3. Chance, dance, etc.
   4. More/sure
   5. Schwa in unstressed syllables
   6. Letter 'h'
   7. Letter 'l'
   8. Other differences
6. Dialects within New Zealand English
7. Dictionaries of New Zealand English (adding details from the introduction para. 4, and possibly the books listed in "Further reading")
8. See also
9. Further reading
10. External links

Grutness|^hello? 23:10, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Good idea. ping 07:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'll give it a week or so to see if anyone objects, but if others think it's a good diea too, then I'll swap things around. Grutness|^hello?

Update. Done. Comments, bouquets, brickbats? Grutness|^hello? 06:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nei or ne?

I thought the word in Maori that asks "is that not so?" was "ne" not "nei". It's used in at least two places in the article. Can anyone confirm either way? Ben Arnold 09:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My fault. The Reed pocket dictionary of modern Māori agrees with you. Actually, it should be n followed by e-macron, but I don't know what character to type for that (if anyone does, please replace its two appearances in the Māori influence section of the article!) Grutness|^hello? 00:03, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

-ize

in your section 'Spelling' you state -ize is UK english.

You are absolutely wrong. -ise is the overwhelmingly common ending here in the UK, the ending -ize is an american invention.

Whereas we write 'burgled', and americans would say 'burglarized'. By further illustration UK is 'sodomised' but US is 'sodomized'. It is a horrible clumsy adaptation and universally ignored in the UK. Unless you can justify your claim I will be forced to edit the article to remove this calumny against my native language  :-P

193.131.115.253

Hate to tell you this, but both -ize and -ise are UK inventions. It's just that the early settlers to the US took -ize with them from the old country, and -ise is a much more recent creation. The UK and New Zealand had the good sense to adapt to a more sensible spelling. The US decided (as they seem to do with a lot of things) that if something used in the US is changed for the better overseas, it is "Un-American" and should be avoided. You will note that the article doesn't say that -ize is standard in the UK, just that it is allowable there and that several manuals of style prefer it. Both are true. Still, you are right that it is a little misleading. Grutness|^hello? 02:05, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oxford and Cambridge universities both use -ize as the orthodox spellings. This has spilled over to dictionaries where -ize is listed as the standard spelling while the -ise is the "colloquial form". In Asia, even in the former British colonies, it is rare to use -ise. --JNZ 08:09, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Back-trilled r...

As in a velar trill? Sure these weren't French settlers? Alai 06:28, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

not that big a trill! No, they were Scots. Listen to a northern Scot say "Aberdeen" and it will all make sense! Grutness|^hello? 11:48, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Or listen to myself saying it, even. I've never heard that called a "back trill", though: it's alveolar. (Or an alveolar tap or approximant in some cases, but so far as I know, never significantly further back as regards point of articulation.) Back trill refers any time I've come across the term to a velar or uvular sound, i.e. the French, German etc r (in cases where it's actually trilled, rather than a fricative, which is the part at which I start getting especially hazy). Alai 15:59, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If you feel that would be better, feel free... I know virtually nothing about the science behind vocalisation. Anyone else here know more? Grutness|^hello? 23:48, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Zuchinni / Courgette

Really? If asked which was the predominant term in NZ, I'd judge that they are about equal. Some supermarkets call them courgettes, some zuchinnis, ditto fruiterers and locally published recipies. Restaurants seem to favour Zuchinni - maybe because Italian cuisine is more fashionable than French these days. So even if zuchinni is the predominant form in Oz, I don't think a contrast is warranted.dramatic 10:07, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agree that both terms are used. Evil Monkey∴Hello 10:49, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Thirded. Ben Arnold 04:36, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to take it out then. Moncrief 06:28, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Newzild

Newzild (a play on the 'lazy' pronunciation of New Zealand by some speakers) is a colloquial name for New Zealand speech, maybe heard less often now than in the 1970's and 1980's. It was also the title of a short humorous book, a companion to "Les Stalk Strine", which spoofed Australian English. If I can find my copy I'll post publication details. dramatic 03:25, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, "New Zild and How to Speak It" by Arch Acker, 1966, including such classics as "Air Mice Poster" - indicating doubts about one's ability to perform a given action - "Air mice poster sleep while you keep making all that noise". It's on Mum's bookshelf somewhere. RB30DE 08:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

IPA for NZE

There's an article (International Phonetic Alphabet for English) that describes the differences between General American, General Australian and Received Pronunciation. Can any one who knows linguistics update this article to include New Zealand pronunciation?

I have a lot of trouble understanding IPA because all the examples for the symbols are in accents that don't match mine. (I remember an American telling me the a in Java was like the o in hot, when they really meant something closer to the u in hut.) Ben Arnold 01:06, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Fiord vs fjord

I discovered this when I stumbled upon the fjord article and thought, "oh yeah, someone's decided to be politically correct and use the non-anglicised form". After a bit of googling I found out that the rest of the world seems to hold to that crazy j:

• *.au: fiord 314, fjord 3880
• *.ca: fiord 9310, fjord 49200
• *.ie: fiord 38, fjord 329
• *.uk: fiord 624, fjord 63500
• *.us: fiord 164, fjord 960
• *.za: fiord 12, fjord 205

versus

• *.nz: fiord 600, fjord 285

Ben Arnold 12:11, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

It took me ages, when I moved to NZ, to get used to the "crazy non-English spelling" of fiord with an I. In fact, I think the only time I regularly use the "I" is in "Fiordland". Grutness...wha? 01:40, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

I must confess the NZ results surprise me. As a kiwi I would only use the spelling "fiord" or the 2-syllable pronunciation (emphasis on i)_ in reference to the Fiordland ones, and even then, I'm more likely to call them sounds. In The Salmon of Doubt, a posthumous edition of collected Douglas Adams pieces, the spelling Fjordland (quite likely not Adams's) appears (page 44). Copey 2 02:43, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

IPA for NZE vowels

This is my first attempt based on the reading and listening I've been doing. I'm hoping it will form the basis for a discussion here that can make its way into the text.

The Received Pronounciation, General American and General Australian sounds I've got from International Phonetic Alphabet for English.

A

• [aː] – the a in father (NZ)
  • [ɑː] – the a in father (RP)
  • [ɐː] – the a in father (Aust.)
  • [ɑ] – the a in father (Am.)
  • The NZ pronunciation (at least among my linguistic group) is definitely not a long ɐ. So maybe we're different from the Australians, maybe I don't speak standard NZE or maybe there's a mistake in the Australian transcription. Ben Arnold

There certainly isn't a mistake in the Australian transcription for /ɐː/. Are you sure that NZers don't use this sound?

Listen to the following sound files and also to NZers on the News on TV for this sound:

• For the /ɐː/
• For the /ɑː/
• For the /aː/

The first one is definitely AuE. Which one sounds closest to NZE to your ears? – AxSkov (T) 11:45, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I think you're right by those samples, so maybe [ɐ] isn't the right transcription of the uh sound I make in words like cut, or maybe IPA transcribes both sounds with the same symbol. For me ah is further "back" than uh. Ben Arnold 23:16, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Those sound samples are just examples, there are always variations in the way a sound is articulated by each individual. I'm inclined to go by the below monophthong diagram on NZE, as that has most likely been drawn from a wide selection of individuals.

True, but that diagram has seperate (if overlapping) circles for hard and hud. Also, according to that diagram NZE would have [əː] for the er in herd. And I'm not sure what the significance of the arrow is for heed. I'll see if I can find another source to compare with.

Of course there are separate circles for the vowels in hard and hud, because they are different vowels with slightly different values. The reason the circles overlap is because they cover the range that different speakers articulate these two vowels. These vowels are both low central vowels and hence use the symbol [ɐ]. The vowels "uh" (as in hud) and "ah" (as in hard) are probably going to be tough ones to sort out.
Ben, did any of the sound samples above sound similar to the vowels you use for "uh" and "ah"? (added a third sound sample above, if that's any help)

The third sound helps. I think I use /aː/ for for "ah" and /ɐ/ for "uh". Ben Arnold 09:14, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Ah, so your "ah" is actually further forward than your "uh" rather than being further back. That makes sense when looking at the NZE monophthong diagram. In the diagram the vowel in "hard" is futher forward (closer to /aː/) than the vowel in "hud", which is also the case in AuE. So do you want to assign for the sound of a in father the phoneme /aː/ or the phoneme /ɐː/ used in AuE? – AxSkov (T) 14:01, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Ok I've [a] for "ah" now. Ben Arnold 11:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

• [ɛ] – the a in bat (NZ)
  • RP bet sounds almost identical to NZ bet
  • [æ] – the a in bat (RP/Aust./Am.)

E

• [ɵː] – the er in Bert (NZ)
  • [ɜː] – the er in Bert (RP/Aust.)
  • [ɝ] – the er in Bert (Am.)
  • (of using [ɜː] for NZ) Not real evidence for this one, other than not being able to find a better rendering, and that it's consistent with RP and Aust.

According to that diagram, the symbol that should be used for er in herd should be [ɘː], and also the short i should have the symbol [ɘ] rather than schwa. The reason why [ɜː] is used, is because it's the traditional symbol used for this sound. Like schwa is used over [ɘ] for short i. – AxSkov (T) 10:36, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

• [e] – the e in bet (NZ/Aust.)
  • I think we're closer to Australia here, RP bet sounds like bat to a NZer, so this would follow.
• [ɪi] – the ee in meet (NZ)
  • [iː] – the ee in meet (RP/Aust./Am.)

[Originally I had [iː] for the NZ ee sound. Ben Arnold 23:16, 22 May 2005 (UTC)]

Are you sure about [iː] for NZE? To Australian ears, the NZ long i (as in feet) sounds a lot like the Australian short i (as in fit). – AxSkov (T) 11:45, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I'll buy that. After all Australians often sound like you're saying Seedney to New Zealanders. I think I was confusing a long vowel with a shift towards [iː]. Ben Arnold 23:16, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually after some thought I think that the diagram is trying to show New Zealand "ee" is a dipthong [iː] , so "feet" might sound like "fiheet". Listening to my own pronounciation this sounds about right.

I

• [ɘ] – the i in bit (NZ)
  • (of using [ə] for NZ) This is fairly well documented. Ben Arnold

I have changed this now to reflect the comment by AxSkov. Ben Arnold 11:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

• • [ɪ] – i in bit (RP/Aust./Am.)

O

• [ɔ] – the o in pot (NZ/Aust.)
  • RP/Am. caught sounds like cot to a NZer, and this is the sound ascribed to Australians.
  • [ɒ] – the o in pot (RP)
  • [ɑ] – the o in pot (Am.)
• [oː] – the or in port (NZ/Aust.)
  • NZ sound is similar to Aust. sound, and since the RP/Am. caught sounds like cot to a NZer, it makes sense
  • [ɔ] – the o in port (Am.)
  • [ɔː] – the or in port (RP)

U

• [ʊ] – the u in put (NZ/RP/Aust./Am.)
  • seems to apply everywhere; couldn't find a source that indicated that NZ is different
• [ʉː] – the oo in boot (NZ/Aust.)
  • I've seen a lot of places that claim this for Australia, and the NZ sound is definitely closer to the Australian sound that the RP or US sound.
  • [uː] – the oo in boot (RP/US)
• [ɐ] – the u in cut (NZ/Aust.)
  • Well luck sounds different from lick so we must be using a different sound from RP/Am. I can't detect a difference from the sound the Aussies use, so it seems reasonable.
  • [ʌ] – the u in cut (RP/Am.)

I should also mention that this sound in both RP and GA is a low central vowel and should be represented by [ɐ] rather than [ʌ], but [ʌ] is the traditional symbol used for this sound in those dialects. (see open-mid back unrounded vowel) – AxSkov (T) 10:36, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Here are links to a couple of diagrams for New Zealand English Monophthongs and Diphthongs.
Could you list your references? – AxSkov (T) 12:15, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

That page you mention and the IPA for English article are really the only sources I could find. I found snippits and hints on other pages I Googled but really nothing substantial (and I didn't record the URLs so they're useless as references). Ben Arnold 22:54, 22 May 2005 (UTC)

I've just added a section (Lack of distinction between /ɒ/ and /ʌ/), but I too know very little IPA, so I'd be grateful if someone else could check that I haven't made a mess of it! Cheers - Grutness...wha? 14:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC).

Some of these sounds have a lot more variance than the article seems to describe. I'm going to look for more local sources before I even touch the original article, but for now here's some original research from a New Zealander who can read IPA. The "a" from "father" is sometimes /a/ in addition to /ɐ/. The "i" in "sit" isn't really accurately transcribable, partially because it is so short, but it comes closest to these three sounds: /ɘ/ /ɨ/ or /ɪ/. I would've said that /ɪ/ is the most common extreme. Also, while NZE does use /ɐ/ for "run", this is not distinct from RP, where the sound is systemically mistranscribed as /ʌ/. Finally, while /ɛ/ is correct for "cat", especially in rural areas, /æ/ is more common in urban areas. --54x (talk) 18:18, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Utes

In Australia, about the only thing you call small cabined vehicles with trays on them is by the term "Ute" which is not what is stated in the article (claims that Aussies don't use the word Ute). If you said 'Utility' to me, i would assume you were a US person.

Flattened "i" and "U"

Although it's true some nz-ers will make the i sound like a u (even to me and possibly other native kiwis), it's not the norm and most of us will consider the proper pronunciation to be the "schwa" sound. the pronunciation of "i" as something close to a "u" is somtimes done for humorous effect e.g. chevaunes barbie character in serial stuff (in the tv show "what now")

The use of the word 'patu'.

The use of the word 'patu' is a borrowing from Maori. It has 2 meanings;

A. A Maori fighting club.

B. A slang term meaning 'rubbish'.

- (Aidan Work 05:41, 5 December 2005 (UTC))

Buy Hoki! (sorry Selwyn!)

I clicked on the hoki link in this page and found it redirects to the Hoki Province page. Should hoki by itself be a disambiguation page?

I was thrilled a few days before Christmas 2005 to find Hoki on sale in Tesco in Nitra, but stunned when I checked the label to find that it was from Argentina and not from GodZone. :-(

After some Googling tonight I find theirs is Macruronus magellanicus, not Macruronus novaezelandiae. This left me wondering - is hoki *really* a Maori name - can anyone trace its origin? - in Australia it's Blue Grenadier and also Blue Hake.

- (JohnGH 02:30, 4 Jan 2006 (GMT))

According to my New Zealand Pocket Oxford Dictionary, yes, hoki is a Māori word. Barefootguru 18:13, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

It was By hokey, definitely not Buy hoki

The hoki fish had nothing to do with Selwyn Toogood's cry of "By hokey!". It roughly meant "goodness gracious!" or "my word!" or somesuch. This link here is one of many google results which shows it in context. Uncommon today though. Cheers Moriori 22:41, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Criteria for Vocabulary

Before adding words to the vocabulary secton, please do a bit of research:

1. Is it established in the culture? I would suggest 10-20 years usage as a reasonable minimum to filter out the faddish slang - more than one generation using it. This is why I removed skux, which although apparently native to NZ/pacific, might only last a year before the next teen buzzword.
2. Is it unique to NZ? Wikipedia:Google is your friend. It took one minute to find that "bunk" is sufficiently common in the UK and South Africa to be used in multiple newspaper/article headlines. And a straw-poll of 5 North Islanders established that they all used "bunk", debunking the "South Island only" theory.

dramatic 08:10, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

"Debunking"? :) Grutness...wha? 08:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Questions to address

Matters I would prefer a qualified linguist to comment on--

I've moved this to the end of page; new topics are expected to be here. (FtC)

w vs wh—Many kiwis distinguish these, though some of us older ones were taught to do so at school. Not as universal as in Scotland, but what is the status of a distinct wh phoneme here?

Don't say wot, say what. ):- Moriori 20:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

No, no. In NZ, don't say "wot?," say "eh?" - Tm19

u and ou? — In NZ English the vowel in school, differs from that in scoot. Similarly the diphthong in coal differs from that in coat--see my comment further down under 'Milk'. It's the following dark l that makes the difference. Australians don't split the u phoneme; I'm not sure about ou. Do any other dialects make this distinction?

Australians do have two allophones of /ʉː/, with the same distribution. At least, Victorians and South Australians are notorious for doing it, whereas some people from New South Wales do it, others don't (so I understand). Likewise, we have two allophones of /əʉ/. See stuff at Australian English phonology. As I understand it, many near-RP accents (and perhaps RP itself), as well as Estuary English and Cockney have a split /əʊ/; the latter two have a split /uː/. Most dialects of American English with normally fronted versions of /u/ or /oʊ/ also have backed allophones before /l/ (I think Southern American English is the major exception and that there the split is also beginning to occur). (FtC)

In TV news and weather reports, the word the followed by a vowel is frequently pronounced with schwa, followed by a glottal stop, rather than as "thee" (sorry, can't do IPA), and gliding into the vowel. Can anyone comment on how widespread this is, with reference to age, region and possibly gender?—Copey

I find that when my (Australian) peers (rather than newsreaders) speak formally, glottal stops are used as almost the only hiatus-avoidance, so linking r's become a glottal stop instead, "the apple" becomes [ðəʔæpəɫ] etc. But that's just based on personal experience and isn't really interesting to you. (FtC)

Actually, it is. I have heard it in people's conversation here. I thought I detected it once in the speech of a news/weather reader. I keep meaning to listen out for it and forgetting.—Copey 2 03:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

BTW: You might be interested in getting an account here. It has many advantages including being able to sign your posts with your name automatically (using four tildes: ~~~~). Of course, you can do this without an account, but it shows up as your IP. Just click the link in the top-right of the page.

FtC = —Felix the Cassowary 16:26, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. I now have an account. I originally signed on as Copey, but there was a glitch with the password, and the link that was supposed to send me a new one didn't. So I am now Copey 2 03:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

---

Would be good to add a comment about references to the islands of NZ—always the North Island and the South Island, unless used attributively—a number of South Island farmers... etc. Also the use of in rather than on to express location on the two main islands—in the North Island, in the South Island, but on Stewart Island, on Great Barrier Island

My wife and I moved away from N.Z. in the mid-1980s. On recent trips back we have found decreasing use of the definite article in television broadcasts, professional tourist videos with (apparently) Kiwi voiceovers, etc. When someone says, "Heading to South Island, we find beautiful mountains...", I get a definite (no pun intended) fingernails-on-blackboard response. - Tm19 06:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Do people still use the term Newzild? It used to be used deliberately and facetiously to refer to the perceived sloppiness of NZ speech. It derives from a small humorous book that came out in the late 1960s called Newzild and how to speak it, which cashed in, with some success, on the popularity (even in NZ) of its earlier Australian counterpart, Let Stalk Strine. (Sorry, don't know the names of the respective authors)—Copey

Maybe I was living in a bubble, but I just don't recall Newzild from the 1970s-80s. I would say it's not significant or was only a fad in some circles. - Tm19

I'm pretty sure it was in widespread use even in the 70s, and still is today. I'll try to find some sources if I can. Grutness...wha? 02:05, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

BTW, given that Newzild redirects here, the term should be mentioned on the page (per Wikipedia:Redirects#What needs to be done on pages that are targets of redirects?). I'm sure it used to be mentioned in the first paragraph - I've put it back (feel free to revert if you think it's unnecessary). Grutness...wha? 06:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Ehau ?

I lived briefly in Rotorua and remember schoolkids using the slang word "ehau" or "ehor" in place of "mate", "friend" or "mister" when addressing someone directly, perhaps when being a little in-yer-face. This was in the early 1960s, so precise usage is difficult to recall, but I don't believe I dreamt it. Anyone comment? Folks at 137 22:55, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It's ehoa. And yes, it roughly means all of those things, but is reallty a greeting, as in tena koe ehoa. Moriori 23:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Kao. hoa is friend, and e is a particle used before names, giving rise to the use of e hoa as a way of addressing friend. However, this [2] suggests that e hoa might also mean mister/sir.Limegreen 23:13, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this, perhaps Alzheimer's is further away than the kids think. Also: We used "neat" to mean modern "cool" or "really good". (It's all coming back to me!) I'd add these to the article but, given the comments above, "Criteria for Vocabulary", I'm hesitant to be bold. Wait for encouragement. Folks at 137 23:30, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks of 'e hoa' as two words? ping 08:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Not at all Ping. It is more accurately e hoa but more popularly ehoa because people like me fall into bad habits. Cheers. Moriori 08:21, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Erewhon

It is my understanding that Samuel Butler did not name his high country sheep station "Erewhon" but that another runholder named his station "Erewhon" in honour of the novel Butler wrote. Butler's station was "Mesopotamia". Both stations still exist under those names both in the Canterbury High Country one in the Rakaia watershed and the other in the Rangitata. I think this is common knowledge. Can anyone verify?

The understanding is correct. Butler called his station on the Rangitata "Mesopotamia," meaning "meeting of two rivers," and of course alluding to the ancient history of what is now Iraq. The station called Erewhon in honour of Butler's book is nearby but on the Rakaia, the wrong side of the Rangitata for Butler. It's also often forgotten that in the book, the imagined world of Erewhon ("Nowhere" backwards, more or less) is not the sheep station where the early chapters are set, but "Over the Range," on the other side of the Whitcombe Pass, which Butler discovered. The most accessible source for all this and Butler's whole career in New Zealand is the "Oxford Companion to New Zealand Literature," under "Butler," "Erewhon," and "Erewhon Revisited."

Roger Robinson

Emeritus Professor of English, Victoria University

I have my contacts ;-) Barefootguru 03:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The above is more or less correct, but Erewhon Station is on the Rangitata, not the Rakaia, and is just across the river (but perhaps 15km upstream)--Limegreen 09:01, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Maori Influence on New Zealand English

When I was younger it was common for pakeha kiwis to say "Hurray!" when saying "Good-bye" and in fact I still use it from time to time but younger people do not. I used to say it when I lived for a time in England and afterwards wondered what people thought I meant. I believe it probably originated from the Maori "Haere ra". ??? Any ideas

Max Cryer, in his book Curious Kiwi words, says that this is a variant of British "hurrah", with a new meaning added. He comments that "a vague belief that hooray is an Anglicised version of the Māori phrase haere ra is entirely without foundation." -- Avenue 22:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It was also used in Australia (OED), which also undermines the New Zealand connection. This supposition does keep popping up on wikipedia. I've deleted it twice! (once from this page, not sure where the other was from). Limegreen 02:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I've also heard the Aussie variant "hoo-roo". I think that Max Cryer (and Limegreen) is right that it's a fallacy about haere ra. Grutness...wha? 04:24, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

"Unique" words/phrases

I'd like to suggest that the "Unique words and phrases" section be moved out into its own article (with a name like List of New Zealand English words and phrases). It's getting pretty long and unqieldy where it is, and it's poorly headed, too, since many of the words there aren't unique but are shared with Australia or the UK. Grutness...wha? 00:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Good idea.Kahuroa 03:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Maori influence on New Zealand English

I have moved the long lists of Maori words used in NZ English to a separate article Māori influence on New Zealand English. I started that article to take a nearly identical list that I took out of the article Māori language where its relevance was peripheral to the subject of that article. Kahuroa 04:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Cellphone?

Do Kiwis really call a mobile phone a cellphone, as per "Vocabulary differences" in the article? I recall they were called that years ago when they first came out, but these days, isn't mobile phone the norm? Example: that little girl in the Telecom ad who say she is going to ring someone on her mobile. Moriori 22:17, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, I know I still do, and a number of others I know do, although that's not a wonderful yardstick. I also don't know any NZers who talk about their mobile. And when there is concern over the location of a transmitter, it's usually about a `cellphone tower'.Limegreen 01:28, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually I think 'mobile' is pretty common in AK "what's your mobile number?' is how I think I'd ask Kahuroa 02:11, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll have to have a listen. There is some research tentatively suggesting that Auckland has a more internationalised form of NZE than Dunedin (such as greater use of US v. UK terms). There can also be quite a disparity between what people think they say and what they actually say... (So I may not really talk about my cellphone at all...). I don't put a lot of sway in using google as a yardstick, but I thought it was interesting that "mobile phone" drew mostly commercial sites (telecome, dick smith, tradme), where as "cell phone" drew blogs and news sources, suggesting some difference in who is doing the saying. Limegreen 05:58, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not a real biggie, but I can't for the life of me remember any of my friends/acquaintances/colleagues actually using "cellphone". It's mobile all the way. Cheers. Moriori 07:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Contrast that with my experience in Dunedin, where it's invariably cellphone. Pretty sure, though not absolutely, that all my Christchurch mates say cellphone. Incidentally, could I encourage everyone commenting on their own experience of the language to state where they live? Especially when making claims on universal usage. A number of comments made on NZ usage don't match my experience, and I'd like to get a regional picture of some of these things. Copey 2 12:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree - the term "cellphone" is still the one I encounter most often down here in Dn. Grutness...wha? 13:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Jack Chambers has argued that with the globalisation of English, national identity markers are breaking down, but that there are now more distinctions at a micro level. ie, the group of people that we each associate with are more likely to have a distinct way of using english that the country group that we belong to. I'm not sure that I entirely agree, but I think a lotof the less obvious markers of NZE are disappearing. Limegreen 22:46, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

In auckland i usually hear mobile being used, but sometimes its just plain old phone "where's my ohone?". Thats usually just when its obvious it could only be a mobile. never cellphoneItsawayoflife 09:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)its a way of life

Both are used both when I lived in Auckland or now in Christchurch, although because I'm Asian in background the results will always lean "more American" than the Europeans. I think "cellphone" is considered the colloquial/older usage, while "mobile phone" is more formal/newer/"correct" usage, consciously that "cellphone" is the US term while "mobile phone" is the British usage. I think people who are more conscious of standardizing usage will use "mobile phone".--JNZ 08:14, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

"Unique and distinctive phrases"

This whole section needs pruning. If these phrases are used in New Zealand, they are regionalisms, and not particularly characteristic of New Zealand English generally. I am a New Zealander, and I am not familar with many of them. Nor is the collection anywhere close to being comprehensive. It's just filler. A few more carefully chosen, characteristic examples would be much better.

Prune! You are not alone in this opinion - its a pity when silly lists destroy a page. Kahuroa 00:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I got rid of 'Jafa' with its bad language. It can only serve two purposes: (1) insult Aucklanders; (2) make the rest of NZ look like they have a chip on their shoulder. It does nobody any good, nor does it illuminate anything. Kahuroa 09:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

rark up

To rark up seems to be New Zealand English slang. I don't know any origins, so adding it would be original research, but if anyone has sources, adding a few lines about it would be nice. --Gerrit ^CUTEDH 12:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

New Zealand English vocabulary

This has developed into a Very Silly List. A great many of them are described as shared with other forms of English. That means they aren't distinctive or particularly characteristic of NZ English. So why are they here. A lot of the rest are outdated or just plain slang. To be listed on this page, words should be CHARACTERISTIC of NZ English AS A WHOLE - not just old folks' talk, or teenage talk. Needs a good prune. Kahuroa 19:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Pruned a bit. Much more could go. One thing that also needs to be watched is the use of this list to have a go at other groups: Aussie, Brits, North Islanders, South Islanders, Aucklanders. Comes across as immature, and not appropriate for an encyclopedia. And, given the 'Criteria for vocabulary' higher up on this talk, the whole section listing words that are shared with other countries should go as well... Kahuroa 20:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

New Zealand English vocabulary/Unique and distinctive phrases

I note that Australian English looks a lot more professional than ours does because they have created a separate article Australian words to take the list of words and phrases. On this model I have created a New Zealand words article and have moved the list there. It is a bit raw in terms of introduction etc at the moment Kahuroa 02:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

South Island Māori pronunciation

I wonder about this so-called 'distinctive pronunciation' of South Island Māori, in which Oamaru is said 'Om-a-roo' - has this come from a linguist source or is it politically correct revisionism? It seems strange that this 'distinctive' pronunciation is identical phonotactically to English, has incorporated English phonemes, and appears to disregard the usually conservative nature of Polynesian vowels. Raises questions about why South Island Māori manuscripts of the 19th century, (written by South Island Māori) appear pretty normal in the representation of vowels etc. 'Om-a-roo' suggests also that syllables could end with a consonant in the middle of a word, again an English feature Kahuroa 20:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The spelling Om-a-roo doesn't represent a syllable ending in a consonant. Any consonant between two vowels in English forms a syllable with the following vowel, even if that vowel is at the beginning of the next word. Green apples is syllabified as "gree-na-ples". One problem with spelling it that way is that it suggests that the a is pronounced as in sofa. The spelling Om-a-roo shows that the initial O is pronounced like o in comma. The spelling O-ma-roo would suggest the o in coma. Copey 2 12:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree - o-ma-roo is a better way of putting it, but also see Copey 2's point about the expected pronunciation of "O" (and yes, Kahuroa, that is the way local Maori pronounce it and have long pronounced it). SI Maori can end in consonants, but only at the end of words (due to apocope), though this has died out almost completely - the only times you temd to run across it are in historical records referring to palces like "Lake Wagadib" (i.e., Wakatipu). There is still a place in Otago called "The Kaik", though, somewhere near Waikouaiti, and the schwa ending of Otago ( o-TAH-guh) favoured by some locals also probably comes from this apocope. Grutness...wha? 13:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. The apparent dropping of final vowels is a feature of Māori generally though, not just S.I, tho I associate it more with older speakers. I think Margaret Mutu describes it as the whispering of final vowels rather than true apocope. Is it a placenames-only feature in the South Is? We should really get IPA into use here too re coma vs comma. Let me know if you come across a linguist's analysis Kahuroa 19:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not in contact with many Maori speakers (and fewer still who use the southern dialect), so I couldn't say for certain - place names are the most common usage of Maori words in non-Maori English, but of course you get the problems you mentioned above of the Anglicisation (or Scotticisation, at least :) of the sounds - mixing the two influences makes it hard to work out from that alone where dialect ends and interpretation begins. Perhaps the strongest example of that is a hill just north of Dunedin called "The Kilmog". Technically, it would have been Kirimoko, but how much of the change of spelling was due to the dialect and how much to the Scottish settlers? I have seen it written up in an old book at the Dunedin Public Library - if I can find a source for it there it would be useful to add. Grutness...wha? 01:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Maize

A recent change to this article makes me wonder: Does NZ English use the word maize or corn (or both). Rmhermen 00:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Corn, though I have heard maize used to describe it while it's still growing. Grutness...wha? 01:47, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The maize widely grown by Kiwi farmers is definitely not the same as the corn that people grow in their home gardens or buy in the supermarket or at road stalls. Moriori 03:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

As maize is grown and used primarily as cattle feed the average kiwi sees maize growing in the fields but eats corn at home! Im sure these are two different crops.

Maize is the umbrella species for what Americans call field corn, sweet corn, popcorn, etc. If New Zealanders are calling another grain "maize", they are using the term incorrectly. However, "corn" is typically a country's primary cereal grain, which may or may not be maize. It could be wheat, rye, barley, etc. Wahkeenah 16:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Is it what!

I reckon the article needs to mention the expression "Is it what!", meaning "Yes, it most certainly is!". This seems to me to be a typical New Zealand expression, notable as it has confused more than one foreigner, since it sounds like a question. My experience:

Me: "It's cold today."
A New Zealander: "Is it what!"
Me: "Cold."
A New Zealander: "Yes, I heard you. I was agreeing with you."

I'm just not sure what part of the article to put this on. Any suggestions?

--Daniel 05:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

While people do say "Is it what!" in NZ English, it seems more British in tone to me. I certainly don't believe it's unique to NZ English, so I think it shouldn't be in the article. -- Avenue 23:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Could be. I've never lived in the UK, only France, the US and now New Zealand, so it seemed like a NZ expression to me. Have to look into it more. --Daniel 05:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems Merriam-Webster, an American dictionary, thinks that it is a "chiefly British" use of the word. --Daniel 05:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Take care not to quote sources misleadingly. M–W thinks the use of what? as a tag question is chiefly British. Growing up in the UK I don't think I ever heard someone use it in earnest, but I understand the usage and am happy to have it designated British. However, I have never heard of and would not understand the sentence "Is it what!" as exemplified above. It seems to me that it therefore has an independent existence as a NZ expression, even if its origin involves the same tag-what. —Blotwell 01:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Diphthongised long vowels

Another thing that I have noticed living here, and which is definitely a trait of the pronunciation of certina er... rural New Zealanders, is a strange sort of diphthongisation of long vowels. The most prominent one is the long O, as in "no". Rather than pronounce it as a nearly-pure vowel with a slight "w" glide at the end, they pronounce it as a diphthong which I'd be tempted to say is a long O followed by a hard R, or a long O followed by a short I, depending on the person.

Additionally, the long I becomes the diphthong O+I for some speakers. This is a trait shared with some Australian speakers (think of Kath Day Knight saying "that's noice"), but definitely a lot of New Zealanders as well.

Sometimes the long E becomes a diphthong composed of short U and long I -- "speak" pronounced "spuyk".

I've also heard long A and U pronounced a bit particularly, but not quite as much as diphthongs to my ear.

--Daniel 06:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Vise?

Wikipedia:Manual of Style (spelling) would have one believe that NZ, contrary to all other English-speaking countries, spells vice as vise even when the meaning is "fault". Is this true? If so, it should be mentioned in this article. If not, it should be removed from the other. —Blotwell 01:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Vice (the tool) and vice (the fault) are both vice in New Zealand - never seen it any other way AFAIK. 02:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

My copy of the New Zealand Oxford Paperback Dictionary (Deverson, 1998) agrees - both meanings are spelt vice, not vise. (And that dictionary is the source given in the MOS page!) I'll go fix it now. -- Avenue 12:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

More/sure

I have deleted the supposed "American influence" affecting 'more' and 'sure'. This is wrong, as New Zealanders and Australians say more and sure the same way.

You might want to restore it. As a child in Taranaki (1950s and 60s), and as an adult in Dunedin (early 70s and 80s onwards) and Christchurch (late 70s), I have mostly heard these vowels pronounced differently, though I have occasionally heard sure pronounced as shore. I say might, as I don't know what was in the piece you removed, and American influence in this case actually seems unlikely to me.

It would be interesting to divide the population into those who pronounce sure and shore identically and those who pronounce them differently; then divide them again according to whether or not they differentiate between cheer and chair. I suspect there would be a high correlation, with people likely either to merge both pairs or to differentiate both.

Can I again urge contributors to state where they are from, please? Too many people on this page – in both the article and the discussion – assume that the usage they know is that of all New Zealanders, when in many cases it is a regional or local usage. It may even be a majority form, if it is that of people living within 150 km of Auckland, but still not the norm further south. Copey 2 01:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Oxford's dictionary pronunciations indicate that more/shore/sure should all be said the same in both standard NZE and AusE /ɔː/ --Limegreen 11:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"Should"? I would would expect them to observe that it is pronounced the same, rather than prescribing that it should be. This is an error on Oxford's part, and indicates insufficient research. There are many NZ English speakers not hugely influenced by British pronunciation who differentiate them. In Dunedin, including among people from further north, I mostly hear them differentiated. I know I usually heard them differentiated in Taranaki in the 1950s and 60s, where I grew up in the freezing works town of Waitara. I have heard them both pronounced as shore most of my life, but it has always been a minority variant. I haven't been in Auckland since 1977. It may well be that the merging of the two has become general in the north in the last 30 or 40 years, but it hasn't yet in the south. Copey 2 12:44, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

NZSL

Why is New Zealand Sign Language listed (but not discussed), whereas other countires with sign languages do not have their respective sign languages listed on their main Wik pages?Kdammers 06:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It is listed because it is an official language in New Zealand. Kahuroa 06:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Rising inflection

In the section on rising inflection, it says that New Zealanders sometimes do this at the end of a sentence in response to a question. I'd say that it's not only in response to a question, but to emphasise a statement as well. Section amended. 203.97.173.115 19:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Confusing

This sentence, "Below the latter word is how the former word sounds to the ears of a non-New Zealander:" is really confusing. Does anyone agree it needs to be simplified? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.8.115.11 (talk) 08:54, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

Absolutely, it should ideally be tabulated. I'm not even sure if it's worth mentioning exactly what the table below is though, as I can't think of an easy, non-confusing, and more importantly NPOV way of presenting it. I'll check for a reference on wiki markup for tables and then get onto this. --54x 08:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Usage of the term dairy

My observation is that the use of dairy describing a corner type of shop has been declining and displaced by the generic description convenience store. This is particularly acute in places like Auckland and Christchurch as brands like Star Mart shun the established term and new shops are started by immigrants from countries like South Korea, mainland China, and Taiwan, which use American spellings. It lingers on at smaller centres and older shops owned by Kiwis or Indian immigrants but IMHO it may entirely disappear within a decade. --JNZ 21:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, "Convenience store" is, to the best of my knowledge, not used at all here in the south, except maybe for things like - as you say - Star Mart and other large chains. Independent corner stores are invariably called dairies. Also, FWIW, new migrants to here from Asia do not use American spellings. You must have a different brand of foreigner further north! Grutness...wha? 00:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm in Rangiora so dairy is still used around here. However, once you reach core parts of Christchurch the term convenience store is also used, while in Auckland (where I used to live until last year) the use of dairy is almost extinct. And I have seen Japanese, Korean, and Taiwanese shop owners use non-commonly-NZ spellings like color, recognize on the promotional pamphlets they produced, believe it or not. --JNZ 02:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I just came back from Auckland last week, and over there the term dairy seems to have died out. All the new corner stores are called convenience stores or superettes, even if they are owned by Europeans or Indians. --JNZ 21:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It would fit with some of the research that Auckland is increasingly adopting AmE norms. Somewhat interestingly, it is not necessarily occurring in other places, and somewhat fits with Jack Chambers' notion that differences between national variants of English are decreasing, but regional differences are increasing.--Limegreen 23:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I live in Auckland and I've never heard anyone use the term convenience store. Everyone I know says dairy.Liamodwyer13 09:04, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I have never heard the term convenience store used in New Zealand. Moriori 20:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Indent reset- while most shops don't call themselves dairies, the term is in common usage by their customers all the time. I've never heard anyone say that they're going off to the "Convenience Store" to buy some milk. We always say either Dairy specifically, or shops in general. --54x 09:16, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Speaking Properly

"others may misinterpret the speech of New Zealanders because they pronounce their vowels differently due to their accent, but this must be distinguished from the (false) claim that New Zealanders do not speak properly."
There's something funny about that statement. I mean, I laugh when I read it. This may be in part from being a NZ'er who does not in fact, speak properly or just the bolded part being inherently funny but these ideas of "false claim" and "properly" seem awfully subjective. In any case this statement seems like it could be generalized to nearly any accent except maybe English English which is presumably the benchmark for "properness".
Are there english accents which are widely considered non-proper, for example American or Scottish, while NZ english masqearudes as proper english?--BlakeKeltic 01:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This is just blatant POV, even if it is backlashing against an even less neutral point of view. I've removed it, and considered replacing it with something, but couldn't come up with anything that made roughly the same point and still sounded encyclopaedic. --54x 09:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Pronounciation

I added a pronunciation key, a simplified version of the NZE part of IPA chart for English. As noted on the talk page for that page the source is a page I found on the web. Ben Arnold 17:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Why They Murmur

I think that the reason some non-Kiwis interpret this dialect as a "murmur" is some of the vowel sounds. The one that sticks out to me is the sound in words like "kick", "rich" and "sit". This sound shifts to sound more like a schwa. A schwa is sort of an indistinct sound. New Zealand English thus has more schwa-like sounds than any other dialect of English that I can think of right now. I am open to other thoughts. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 05:28, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Well according to the chart the New Zealand pit vowel is more mid-central than the equivalent vowel in British or North American speech. I think that some Australians have an even closer, more front pit vowel, closer to [i]. 217.33.200.148 (talk) 15:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)