Talk:Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)/Archive 1

Faith's surnam is apparently official according to Joss Whedon - see http://www.slayerverse.net/tanet/net_buffy_us/index.php?navi=news.php&id=16378 for details. --Lokicarbis 17:33, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)

Let's wait for the book to be published before considering this canon. -- Netoholic @ 19:46, 2005 Jan 1 (UTC)

It says she's from Boston...

I always thought she was from Louisiana. I seem to recall that in Faith, Hope, and Trick, she mentioned the "bayou" or something...or maybe Kakistos came from there. Then there was the memorable nude vampire slaying story ("should be played every Christmas") - only likely in very hot weather - and Whedon's giving her a "southy" name. But I don't remember anything about Boston. I can't check it (I'm tragically separated from my DVD's at the moment), but it's worth looking up.

It is traditionally assumed that Faith comes from Boston. I believe that Whedon just meant 'South Boston' when he said we wanted a 'southie' name. However, I don't think that her place of origin was ever mentioned in the show. Also, I can't find your reference to the bayou in the episode, sorry. :/ Elenis 12:44, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

In Faith, Hope, and Trick, Faith says she fought a vampire in the bayou who had a bunch of pet alligators. She never said anything about being from Louisiana. Musha 07:00, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Inaccurate and subjective

This article is to be edited by an expert in the show (I'm not one, since I've seen only 3 seasons of it). This article includes erroneous details. For example, Buffy and Faith were never lovers. This was never insinuated in the show. This claim has no grounds. Many more of these in the article, but I can spot only so much since I haven't seen all the episodes concerning the character Faith.

Also, the article takes a stand and isn't neutral. It paint a very stark picture of Faith, hinting that she is an immoral and vicious person, while Bufy the Vampire Slayer and Angel never hinted such extremity. The article's tone basiclly forces an opinion upon the reader. It is to be edited. CommandoGuard 15:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

It is true that Buffy and Faith were never shown to be lovers, or that there were any stronger ties than friendship and a possible between-slayers kind of connection. So yes it is quite bold to make such a statement. However, it could be possible to interpret some things as that there was something more between the two. But, it's just speculation about parts of the story that were never shown to the viewers.

It is not of Wikipedia's function to speculate or interpret. We state FACTS. And if there is more than one side to a particular matter, we write all points of view, so that the article won't feel judgemental towards a certain group of people who feel differently about the matter at hand. CommandoGuard

I'm not sure if there is much discussion and debate around whether there were any stronger feelings between Buffy and Faith, so in that case it shouldn't be in the article. The relationship between them is complex as the article says. Maver1ck 15:57, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I would definitely give that point a mention if the article is to be expanded. Faith and Buffy's relationship, as well as their feelings and emotions for each other, were a constant in many of the debates about Faith I've known (the debaters stating different points of view). For a smaller article like this, though, the definition of a 'complex' relationship is fine. Elenis 12:57, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

If we can find a way to discuss this, then that would be good. Maver1ck 09:12, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

What more do you think is inaccurate and subjective? I will take a closer look at the article and see if I can find anything to change in regards to that. Maver1ck 14:41, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

As I said, I can't refer to the entire article. I've only watched season 1-4 of Buffy (thoroughly, though) and season 1 of Angel. Therefore, I can't account for the entire article since I'm missing any views about Faith during seasons 2 and 4 of Angel, season 7 of Buffy and perhaps mentions of her during various Buffy/Angel episodes. I will go through the article and list whatever seems a bit off. But as I said, someone who watched all seasons of Buffy and Angel would do a better job than me.

I also feel that this article is not developed enough. It's very concise and incomplete. Perhaps I will extend the article myself later. CommandoGuard 15:18, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

You said that "[the article] paint a very stark picture of Faith, hinting that she is an immoral and vicious person, while Bufy the Vampire Slayer and Angel never hinted such extremity."

I agree. In my opinion, Faith is not basically evil, even if she begins to work for the Mayor. She is one of the good guys, but since she always feels like she's left out, she doesn't know how to get back to work with Buffy and her gang again. I think that one day she would like to do that though. In episode Choices 3.19 for example, Faith tells Willow sarcastically to give her the speech about how they can still help her, it's not too late, etc., on which Willow states that it is far beyond too late. Watch Faith's reaction. Maybe she just wasn't prepared for that answer, or she wanted the usual answer, but now the door was shut. She is basically good, but very troubled, likely since her childhood. How do you propose we rewrite the article to give a more fair image of Faith? Btw, the article seems accurate regarding her appearance in season 7. Maver1ck 15:57, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

I propose breaking down the article to several sections, such as: "Childhood and early life" (detailing what we know about Faith's childhood and her early relationships. Basiclly, everything we know about her before her days as a slayer (pre-season 3)), "Faith as a slayer" (Faith's attitude and relation to slaying), "Faith's downfall and amends" (listing Faith's actions after Bad Girls up until the end of the series), "Faith and Buffy" (the relationship between Faith and Buffy and the various changes it goes through during season 3, Angel episode Sanctuary, and season 7). These are the main points that I think the article should touch further than it does now. Her relationship with Angel is also an interesting issue but I feel that it belongs in the Angel page more than it does here. The example you've given (Faith in Choices) emphasizes the amount of depth this article could reach. CommandoGuard 17:55, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like an interesting idea, if we have enough for each section. I'm not sure how much we know about her childhood, she does reveal some of it from time to time, for example in Enemies. I might start looking into how this article could be written. Are you planning on working on it also? Maver1ck 20:04, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely. I just need someone to split the article into sections and reorganize the information that we already have into every section. Here's an example of a good character article.

We don't know much about her childhood or her life before she became a slayer, but we know bits and pieces. It's easy to miss an important piece of the puzzle (the character) just because you weren't paying attention. In 3.07 Revelations Buffy and Faith exchange comments about their relationships with men. In this dialogue, Faith states that she has never had a working relationship with a guy. It's easy to miss on that because it was just small talk. Faith mentions this again in one of season 7's episodes, this time explicitly and clearly. But one was paying attention at Revelations would know that 4 years earlier. When I first watched Consequences I hated Faith. She seemed very childish with her whole killing with impunity attitude and I admired Buffy for trying to help her. Only after watching Consequences for like 500 times, did I finally try to watch the episode from Faith's perspective, try to think what she thinks, feel what she feels. Ever since then, I developed some sort of sympathy towards Faith. I also started to really hate Buffy when it comes to Faith. The way she behaved towards her suddenly seemed very offensive to me. That's the only way to never miss a piece of the puzzle: stay focused in the character and only the character. Be the character. Even in episodes in which Faith doesn't appear, you have to ask yourself "What is Faith doing right now? How's she feeling?". It's easy to understand Buffy. She's always exactly what she seems. Faith is never what she seems to be. Okay, ignore my inane babbling. Let's do something useful here. :) CommandoGuard 22:53, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

The splitting up into different sections makes perfect sense to me, and so do the suggested titles by CommandoGuard.

Although I believe that the article is too concise and (sometimes) one-sided, I would recommend being extremely careful when it comes to the explanation of Faith's actions. We tend to justify Faith whatever she does. It is important to point out the motivations that drove her to do this and that, and it can be enrichening to know how she is probably feeling at a particular moment, but we must never forget that feelings are not shown onscreen -- instead they are suggested, implied. Interpretations may be misleading.

An example: while I find "Her slide towards evil became more and more blatant, and she even kidnapped Willow at knife-point and threatened to kill her" excessive, I also don't feel entirely comfortable with "Isolated and afraid, she turned to Mayor Wilkins ...". Some would say she was not isolated, that Buffy, Giles and the whole Scooby Gang were trying to help her, although it can be argumented that they were not doing it alright. It is important that the article reflects this variety of perspectives, as I said above with the Buffy/Faith relationship. :) Elenis 14:12, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. CommandoGuard 15:36, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

But it seems that some of the stuff in the article now are interpretations. Should we present different interpretations of the same events and actions? Maver1ck 09:12, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

We don't interpret the events or actions. We interpret the motives that have led to these actions. The actions are unobjected as long as they are actual facts (e.g. the "Faith and Buffy were lovers" thing - not a fact, an assumption) and we know for sure that they have happened. CommandoGuard 11:42, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

To say that Faith felt isolated and afraid, for example, seems true, but it is also just an interpretation. But can it be interpreted in any other way? Should we say that she "apparently" felt like this or that and that's why she did what she did? It's a visual storytelling, so what is shown is part of everything in that story. I think that in many cases, actions, lines and even expressions, tone of voice, etc., can be interpreted in one way, sometimes in more than one way. Maver1ck 11:59, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree that there are cases in which something can be interpreted in one way and one way only. The "isolated and afraid" thing, though, is a bad example, since some people believe it was a malicious desire of her for power .And even that may be true! There's some interesting symbolism about the deal between them: The mayor made a Faustian deal with the devil in which he lost his soul. When Faith comes to the Mayor's office, she, too, in a way, wants to make the same deal. Your soul for power and fortune, just sign on the dotted line with your blood. They have both lost their souls, to some extent. This kind of interpretation makes Faith looks more of a Judas Iscariot than of a fallen angel. By the way, you'll notice that when it comes to Buffy, her motives are almost never ambiguous, always unequivocal. With Faith, it's almost the opposite. As this article will develop, you'll notice that Faith's motives for her various actions are usually two-sided, and at some cases even triple-sided.

A good example: When Faith first came to the mayor and started working for him, was it, at first, because she wanted to spy on him for the Scoobies in order to help them, not telling them about that because she wanted to surprise them with her usefulness, show them that she was just as good as Buffy? Have no mistake, it's possible. She seems quite disturbed when the mayor tells her that he's gonna send killers after Willow and she doesn't do anything that really conflicts with the Scoobies' intentions before trying to rob Angel of his soul. Perhaps she got corrupted by the mayor's love and the gifts he was throwing at her and he's the one who got her all twisted and insensible? This interpretation doesn't sit well with some info we are provided with in the Angel episode Sanctuary, but it stands quite ok on it own. Think about it.

In any case, we all seem to agree that the article should be divided into several categories (see my comments above). Since I extremely suck at reorganizing existing data, I urge one of you guys to do it. And then I can start filling up the gaps, and seeing as the article is quite short right now, there are gonna be lots of gaps to fill. CommandoGuard 19:51, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

You bring up some good points there. Anyway, I've begun to look into the reorganising. Maver1ck 20:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I've been watching this page for a while, and agree with what was said before. If it's any help, I run a large fansite for Faith, and we have several essays and an extensive episode guide about this character - maybe that will help with getting some more of the facts straight? If I see any inaccuracies myself, I will try and edit them out as well. :) Sasha 14:56, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I started to check out your Faith website last night, it looks really good. Your edits were great, I hope you and others here will continue to contribute to this article. Maver1ck 16:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

The addition of the 'legend' and 'power/abilities' sections

They hardly seem to belong here. This is an article about a particular vampire slayer, not the slayers in general. They belong in the Slayer article, not here. CommandoGuard 21:09, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Faith didn't lead the mutiny

Though my recollection of the episode is admittedly foggy, I do recall that Faith never led the "mutiny" against Buffy. Faith openly questioned Buffy's leadership tactics, and criticized Buffy for acting like a dictatrix and not even taking the time to learn the Potentials' names, but just wanted Buffy to do a better job of leading. It was only after the Scoobies and the Potentials kicked Buffy out that Buffy grudgingly passed the torch to Faith, who herself only grudgingly accepted the role of leader. --Corvun 18:53, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Bold edits

I decided to be WP:BOLD, and just removed 1) {{Attention see talk}} template, 2) sections "the legend", "powers and abilities" and the 3) {{Wikiquote}} template.

1. because I read over it, read over the Talk page, and I'm not sure there's much problem with it now. It reads pretty well to me, obviously the Faith/Buffy stuff had been removed a while ago. If anyone vehemently disagrees, go ahead and put it back, but also please outline what you feel the urgent problems are. ("This page needs attention", just like Faith, I thought. ;))
2. "the legend" was copied straight from the Slayer (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) page, no need to duplicate it here. They can read that there. "powers and abilities" didn't add anything special about Faith.
3. Faith's wikiquote page was VfD'd. They have an extensive page on BtVS, but I couldn't figure out how to make the link go to a Wikiquote page that had a different name to this one. Obviously if someone knows how to do that go ahead and put it back in.

--pfctdayelise 15:36, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Good job with the edits. The article looks much better now, though I still think that it can be further developed. CommandoGuard 20:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Page name and page moves

Please make a comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Buffy#Faith (character) v Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) rather than having a revert war, folks. Comment THERE, not HERE, and once we have consensus, we'll do whatever needs to be done. In the meantime, feel free to continue making good faith edits to the content of this page. pfctdayelise 14:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Faith and The Mayor

I read the subtopic on Faith and Buffy, and I noticed the user didn't talk about her relationship with The Mayor. Can someone please write about her relationship with the Mayor? Cause it was an important reason why she stayed with his side. -Lil_Flip246

fanfic

Is it appropriate to mention a comic strip about Faith? —Tamfang 08:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC)