Talk:Cornish wrestling

Englishness

Why is a certain someone out there so keen to uphold the "Englishness" of Cornwall? If they look elsewhere, they can see this is a contentious issue, and British would be a less POV term!

NB: I know this comment is probably older than my pet dog, but, I have to point out that Cornish Wrestling is a Cornish cultural past-time, and not English, so Englishness or England, has no real place of bearing in this article at all. --Τασουλα (Shalom!) (talk) 21:54, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

See Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mab an Garrek (talk • contribs) 15:40, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Request info on Thomas Gundry

Does anyone have anything on Thomas Gundry (1818- Oct 23 1888), of Goldsithney, mine captain. Talskiddy 20:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

See subsection on notable wrestlers

• Captain Thomas Gundry (1818 - 1888) was a champion wrestler in the 1830s and 1840s. His wrestling record comprised at least 25 tournament wins and 5 second placements from tournaments in Cornwall, Devon and London. He was 7 times Cornish champion.

Note that captain here, refers to being a mine captain, ie not to do with boats or the army Mab an Garrek (talk) 08:29, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

See "Cornishman - Thursday 01 November 1888" for an entire Article devoted to Tom Gundry, describing his family, friends, career, etc.Mab an Garrek (talk) 13:47, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Judo

I've asked for a citation about Judo. How is Cornish similar to Judo? Did a Japanese Judoka travel to the British Isles and train some folks in 1139? Hutcher (talk) 07:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Cornish Wrestling and Judo are very similar, but with their own nuances. Cornish wrestling has no ground game and there are some Judo throws banned in Cornish wrestling and vice versa. In Cornish wrestling you cannot grab below the waist, you cannot take hold of anything other than the jacket and there are implicitly no self sacrificing throws. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mab an Garrek (talk • contribs) 14:49, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

There is a reference to a Cornish Wrestling tournament being held in Japan in 1872, hosted by the Royal Marine Light Infantry. Judo was invented in 1882 by Jigoro Kano, so it is unlikely that Judoka visited in 1139. It is likely Cornish wrestling, along with other forms of celtic wrestling, predate 1139 - possibly by millennia. For example wrestling is mentioned in the Tailteann Games dating back from somewhere between 1839 BC to 632 BC (academics disagree) to the 12th century AD when the Normans invaded. Mab an Garrek (talk) 08:30, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Cornu-Breton tournaments

Were harmonised rules required for the sports of Cornish wrestling and Gouren in the Cornu-Breton tournaments? Best Regards. DynamoDegsy (talk) 10:32, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

'The principle of the competition was to determine by drawing, category by category, which style (Cornish or Breton) would be wrestled for the first bout. The revenge was for the second style. If each wrestler had won by Back and Lamm, a third bout was automatically ordered with a drawing to decide the style. Other possibilities, like victories by points, had to be seen individually, with the referee cards, but a victory by points against a victory by Lamm or Back give the victory to the wrestler who had got the perfect result'

Guy Jaouen and Matthew Bennett Nicols: Celtic Wrestling, The Jacket Styles, Fédération Internationale des Luttes Associées (Switzerland) 2007, p157.

User:Mab an Garrek — Preceding undated comment added 15:16, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

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Errors about Michael Drayton

I would make these edits myself, but unfortunately I have no idea how to do it properly so I'll just make the following suggestions.

I believe the date given for Michael Drayton's Poly Oblion is incorrect. It should be 1612 not 1590. Also it was not this poem that mentions the Cornishmen's banner at Agincourt. It was another of Drayton's poems called Battaile of Agincourt published in 1627.

Here's a link to the poem.

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/A73861.0001.001/1:6?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

And here is the relevant section

A siluere Tower, Dorsets Red Banner beares; The Cornishmen two Wrestlers had for theirs. The Deuonshire Band, a Beacon set on fire, Sommerset a Virgine bathing in a Spring, Their Cities Armes, the men of Glostershire, In Gold three Bloudy Cheuernells doe bring; Gallowglass1504 (talk) 19:22, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Have changed. Note, I did not write this section, but did put in earlier mention for Drayton and dated correctly. Have corrected this section accordinglyMab an Garrek (talk) 19:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:07, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

What do I need to do to help demonstrate compliance?Mab an Garrek (talk) 15:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Devon Wrestling and removal

Just come back here and realised the Devonian Wrestling page has been removed and all the Devonian wrestlers of Devonian Wrastling have been classed as participants in 'Cornish Wrestling' only. They're different sports and those wrastlers were Devonian wrastlers of the Devonian style that competed against Cornish wrastlers. The primary sources of the Cann and Polkinghorne match clearly state Cann using the Devonian style in 1826, for example.

I really really hope this isn't a purposeful displacement in order to try and elimate Devonian Wrastling, but unfortunately it seems that way. Dvnedit (talk) 13:07, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

It looks like everyone and their aunt have been Cornish wrestlers at some point of their lives! 195.187.108.130 (talk) 19:42, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

The sport has been practiced for much longer (first wrestler is mentioned dating from the 1400s), across multiple continents, than most sports and as a result there are more notable wrestlers than would be the case for most sports.Mab an Garrek (talk) 14:56, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

"Notable" has special meaning in Wikipedia. The current list of "Notable Cornish Wrestlers" is not a list of notable wrestlers in Wikipedia's sense - it's a meticulously-compiled piece of original research. Unfortunately it converts this article from being a general encyclopaedia article into being a database of historical records appropriate for enthusiasts of the sport. It's good information, but this is not the correct site to host it. In my view it should be removed, but I won't do so unless a few others agree. The previous section, "Notable people who were also Cornish wrestlers" is correct for Wikipedia, but not very impressively referenced; if all we have for Henry VIII being a good wrestler is the Boy's Own annual for 1930, we're really scraping the barrel. Elemimele (talk) 11:42, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"Notability guidelines do not apply to content within articles or lists

The criteria applied to the creation or retention of an article are not the same as those applied to the content inside it. The notability guideline does not apply to the contents of articles. It also does not apply to the contents of stand-alone lists, unless editors agree to use notability as part of the list selection criteria. Content coverage within a given article or list (i.e. whether something is noteworthy enough to be mentioned within the article or list) is governed by the principle of due weight, balance, and other content policies. For additional information about list articles, see Notability of lists and List selection criteria." Mab an Garrek (talk) 09:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Be careful about what this article is, because notability guidelines do very much apply to whole articles. This article can go two ways: it can either be a good, balanced encyclopaedic article about Cornish wrestling, in which case the inclusion of a truly enormous list of everyone who's ever been reported as wrestling is likely to be regarded as inappropriate weight, destroying balance. Or it can be a list article of Cornish wrestlers, with a short intro on wrestling, but in that case it is very likely to run into not-database issues, and will need good secondary sourcing. The current version is trying to ride two horses and likely to fall off both.

The other way to look at this dilemma is that the current article really does a massive disservice to Cornish wrestling. Even on tiny sports like Real tennis, things played by a mere handful of people, we don't attempt to list every player. Genuine, meaningful sports simply have too many people to list. By scraping the historical newspaper archives for every possible reference to Cornish wrestling, it gives the article an air of desperation, portrays wrestling as something so small that the entirety of all who have wrestled fits into a single Wikipedia article, and I really don't think that's the case. I really think it would be much more convincing and positive were it presented similarly to other martial arts and sports, concentrating on those wrestlers who are either genuinely well-known, or who are written about in more than just old, local newspaper reports. I honestly wish there were a place in Wikipedia for this sort of database material, as it's genuinely valuable to the historian. I lobbied once for an extra space where documentable historical material supporting an article could be put, but there was a feeling it didn't belong on Wikipedia but should be published elsewhere.

I'm not particularly out to fight this, but it got noticed by an IP who turned up at the Teahouse, and the chances are, someone else will notice sooner or later, and the result will be a massive trim. It'd be a good idea to find a better home for all this information before it ends up cut. Elemimele (talk) 20:43, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this section does not belong in the article, and would support the removal. It does little to help a reader understand the sport, while taking up a large fraction of the article space, making the table of contents rather unwieldy, and diluting the bibliography with hundreds of references to old magazines and newspapers that most users will be unable to find or verify. Perhaps it could be moved to a separate article of its own? Though whether that alone meets the criteria for an article would still be up for discussion, I think. Quuxbazbarfoo (talk) 14:13, 24 October 2023 (UTC)