Talk:Syro-Malabar Church

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Requested move 7 April 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 08:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – Syro-Malabar Church is WP:COMMONNAME and can be seen in the ngram and WP:CONCISE similar to Latin Church and Maronite Church. Moreover Vatican documents refer to the church as “Syro-Malabar Church” -

71.201.78.227 (talk) 02:50, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Pinging Natemup, most recent mover. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:18, 7 April 2023 (UTC) [reply]
  • Oppose As I told you last year, there are far more documents that use some permutation of "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church". These documents are also more official and in regular usage. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:18, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Cherry-picking documents that mention an alternate name doesn't prove anything.
natemup (talk) 11:56, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article title dispute[edit]

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – The term is WP:Concise,WP:COMMONhere, and the website contains the naming too http://www.syromalabarchurch.in/, so the name is official . There is no naming convention so any naming should be based on Wikipedia policy. Manabimasu (talk) 03:06, 3 September 2020 (UTC);Manabimasu (talk) 13:26, 3 September 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. —Logosx127 (talk) 15:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The title was previously discussed in here and the consensus was created in favour of Syro-Malabar Church. Due to the above elaborated reasons and existing Wikipedia conventions, the title should be restored as early as possible.Logosx127 (talk) 15:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Cuchullain and Scorpions1325: as they were also involved in the previous consesus. Logosx127 (talk) 15:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Logosx127 I don't think I am qualified enough to comment on this. I was just getting involved with moving pages. Had I seen that discussion today, I wouldn't have participated. Scorpions1325 (talk) 15:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My dispute is largely based on WP:CONCISE, WP:COMMON and WP:PRECISE. I think a discussion can be done based on these conventions as it was previously handled. Logosx127 (talk) 15:28, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Logosx127 These rationales were raised in the discussion immediately above this one, and it returned a "no move". Picking up a dispute that was carried on by an IP during the duration of your sock block does not look great (neither does moving the page without consensus). I recommend dropping the stick. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you associating the IP with me? Whatsoever, you haven't addressed the arguments. I am simply relisting the previous discussion started by Manabimasu which resulted in the consensus in favour of the more brief and more common title.Logosx127 (talk) 15:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am. And please see recent reporting on this subject that demonstrates that "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church" is used on first reference, with "Syro-Malabar Church" as an acceptable term on subsequent reference: Vatican News, National Catholic Register, Indian Express. While "Syro-Malabar Church" is a very common name (and an officially accepted one), it is not so exceedingly more common than the official name as to warrant using it instead of the official full name. It's also not evident that it is more common, and you'd need good evidence to show that. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly where WP:PRECISE applies. We don't need to be extremely precise in naming an article. You have already accepted that Syro-Malabar Church is equivalent to Syro-Malabar Catholic Church. You have also admitted that the shorter title is more common and you haven't argued for an ambiguity in the title. I think the dispute is over by now if we could agree to restore the article title as Syro-Malabar Church based on WP:COMMON, WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE and keep Syro-Malabar Catholic Church in the first line. Logosx127 (talk) 16:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Natemup as involved in the last discussion. Not sure why they were neglected in the pings. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:15, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 10 January 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 10:27, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church → Syro-Malabar Church – The term is WP:Concise, WP:PRECISEWP:COMMON [1], and the official website contains the naming too [2]. Logosx127 (talk) 16:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 07:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Christianity has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:16, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject India has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:16, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Catholicism has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Not used so substantially more as to warrant this change. See recent reporting (particularly the on change in leadership that occurred yesterday): Vatican News, National Catholic Register, Indian Express. The church's full name is generally used on first reference, followed by "Syro-Malabar Church" on second reference. "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church" is the body's official name and is consistently referred to as such: see the official Congregation of Eastern Churches survey and The Eastern Christian Churches: A Brief Survey. Also, WP:PRECISE has a carve-out for standardized naming conventions, which exists in this case: see Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Russian Greek Catholic Church, etc. The Google analytics tool cited above is working with such an incredibly limited amount of term usage that single references can have an outsized impact results. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Syro-Malankara Catholic Church is used instead of Syro-Malankara Church to avoid ambiguity that would arise since the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church is also at times referred to as Syro-Malankara (Orthodox) Church [3]. Similarly there are the multiple Ukrainian Orthodox Churches and Russian Orthodox Church. The existence of these different churches with very similar and confusing names is the reason behind usage of such too precise and legal or official titles. But this does not apply for the Syro-Malabar Church as in the case of the Maronite Church (used instead of the more precise Maronite Syrian Church of Antioch) or the Latin Church (instead of the Latin Catholic Church). Therefore your argument based on this comparison does not work very well here. Logosx127 (talk) 17:04, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Could not the same be said for the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church and the Malabar Independent Syrian Church? Also, the official name of the Latin Church is just "Latin Church". The only exemption to this rule is the Maronite Church, which–unlike the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church–is almost never referred to by its full name in reporting, official documentation, or academic literature. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:15, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    [4]
    [5]
    [6]
    [7]
    [8] and most other sources available online uses only the shorter title. Logosx127 (talk) 17:20, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I haven't seen the Malabar Independent Syrian Church ever being referred to as the Syro-Malabar Church. Thozhiyur Church is the name by which it is known and the church itself is very small that it is mostly not notable. Most sources available online and their readers haven't found an ambiguity in the title 'Syro-Malabar Church' that it exclusively refers to the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church. Most secular online sources unanimously use the term Syro-Malabar Church. I'm not here to discuss which title is official and which is isn't. I'm talking about WP:COMMON, WP:CONCISE WP:PRECISE. The Latin Church is more precisely the Latin Catholic Church. Logosx127 (talk) 17:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And many news reports exclusively use "Roman Catholic Church" but you can see the name of that article—we tend to prefer official full names that exist in common usage. I, too, can list a handful of reports, including secular ones, that use "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church" ([9], [10], [11], [12], [13]). Again—unlike the Maronite Church—it's pretty normal to refer to the church by its official, full name. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, that's were WP:PRECISE applies like the Maronite Church. In [bethmardutho https://gedsh.bethmardutho.org/Maronite-Church] article it's given Maronite Church
    The Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch is an eastern Catholic community of Syriac Antiochene origin...     An example can drawn the case of article China also. We have article name China instead of the more precise People's Republic of China and Taiwan instead of the official Republic of China. Logosx127 (talk) 00:26, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
207.96.32.81 (talk) 17:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That comparison with Maronite is incorrect because "Maronite Catholic Church" is not the official name and, as such, wouldn't be seen anywhere. Again, this Google tool is really bad are picking up differences in frequency when we're talking about such marginal topics. Additionally, there's a straw man argument: you introduce a source that no one is using here and then claim that it is too old to be used–all while the term you're trying to invalidate is still being frequently used in publications as of today. And all the while, that source isn't actually old! ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What other tool would you use for WP:Commonname? The Google Analytics tool supports both Maronite Church and Syro-Malabar Church being the article names. I'm not arguing whether Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is official name. Both are used in any source. I have yet to see what is considered an "official" source. Annuario Pontifico English source that came from 2017 being one of them. Common names are preferred for article names.207.96.32.81 (talk) 18:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend looking at what reliable sources say. These tools produce obviously inaccurate readings with regularity (I can manipulate the tool to claim that "Malabar Church" is the most common name for this church with some ease) and themselves are not reliable. Here, reliable news reporting, academic literature, and other documentation all demonstrates that "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church" is in common use and arguably a necessary disambiguation. When a source uses both, it's like how most reliable sources will not repeat a person's full name over and over–Wikipedia does the same. In the article's prose (not its name), for the sanity of the reader, its probably best to defer to "Syro-Malabar Church" on second usage. Not clear what you're trying to say with your "official" comment, but a graphical representation of Annuario Pontifico data isn't the same thing as the text itself. ~ 18:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Reliable sources use either, so I'm not particular on the source. But I find "Syro-Malabar Church" as a WP:Commonname compelling. I used https://www.english-corpora.org/now/ and that had "Syro-Malabar Church" with higher frequency usage than "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church".207.96.32.81 (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose. This violates the clear naming convention of "X Catholic Church". COMMONNAME is not a valid argument for making the encyclopedia harder to use, especially since anyone typing the proposed name will get here already. What's more, some of the provided sources are internal Catholic resources that don't need to say "Catholic" because it's assumed. You might as well argue that Catholic dioceses should just be titled "Diocese of X" because internal Catholic documents call them that, when the reason is simply that they don't typically talk about non-Catholic dioceses. Nyttend (talk) 20:39, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nyttend There's no X Catholic Church convention. Latin Church and Maronite Church are already here. The long standing title Syro-Malabar Church is concise, adequately precise, easily recognisable and unambiguous, and these determine the naming of an article. Apart from these, the church's official website, Facebook, YouTube and the multitude of non-church sources primarily use this terminology.Logosx127 (talk) 07:51, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nyttend To add, there's no such conventions in place for the Orthodox churches either, eg. Church of Greece, Armenian Apostolic Church.Logosx127 (talk) 07:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Orthodox churches are irrelevant here, Latin Church is irrelevant because it's not an Eastern Catholic church, and Maronite Church is suspect. Everything else is X Catholic Church. When you have one or two exceptions to a rule, the solution is to follow policy by making them consistent (or to demonstrate why they're good exceptions), not to make the situation worse by moving other pages when there's no good reason. Nyttend (talk) 20:46, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The policy is basically WP: CONCISE, WP:PRECISE and WP:COMMONNAME. All other Eastern Catholic Church articles currently follow these. The Maronite Church doesn't have Catholic in the article title because there's no ambiguity in its title. Similarly the article title Syro-Malabar Church is unambiguous. The Latin Church, is not be Eastern Catholic but, still it is one one of the twenty-four Sui Iuris Churches. It doesn't have a 'catholic' in its title because it is also clearly unambiguous. There is no Maronite Orthodox Church, Latin Orthodox Church or Syro-Malabar Orthodox Church. But this not the the case with the other Eastern Churches which have Orthodox counterparts. Apart from this the Syro-Malabar Church's official website, facebook, YouTube and all available media outlets use simply the 'Syro-Malabar Church' as its primary name. If they and most of the secular sources available use a terminology, there's no need for Wikipedia activism in it anyway to change it. Interesting fact is that the article title remained Syro-Malabar Church itself until when a Wikipedia editor unilaterally decided, with no discussion whatsoever, to ignore the previous discussions and consensus in favour of the then existing stable title. Logosx127 (talk) 00:46, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: I am seeing consensus to move this but relisting for more input. Reading Beans 07:45, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Not sure what the above relist is talking about, but two supports (including the original proposal) to two strong opposes is not consensus. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:22, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Evaluating former discussions on the exact same topic clearly shows majority in favour of the move. Logosx127 (talk) 01:49, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The most recent prior discussion favored the current name. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:13, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Take all the discussions into consideration, not just the recent one. That gives ample support for title that follows WP: COMMONNAME, WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE. Meanwhile the most recent and controversial move, which was unilaterally done, was without any discussion whatsoever and it disrupted the then existing consensus. The discussion occurred only when one editor questioned the move. Logosx127 (talk) 16:00, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    All of the discussions led to the current name, which existed unchallenged for months except by the same IP editor that has been the only editor to join you in support of your move. There is more extant support for the current name than for the move. Sorry, but you can't count !votes from a 3.5-year-old overturned discussion. In any case, COMMONNAME supports the current name and longstanding practice across similar articles (with one exception in 24) all concur with the current name. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:24, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope. In the first place, the stable name which has remained for the most of the time after the previous discussions is the Syro-Malabar Church. It is the COMMONNAME according to general and official usage. Discussions and consensus cannot be overturned unilaterally. In any case, counting the supports and opposes from each of the discussion, it is clearly evident that the the title Syro-Malabar Church has recieved most of the backing and is also supported not just by COMMONNAME but PRECISE and CONCISE too Logosx127 (talk) 00:13, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: A bit of a coin flip considering both are commonly used (including even at the Vatican), which to me means that I lean towards what the church call itself. However, when I go to the church website at https://syromalabarchurch.in/, in the "About Us" section on that front/home page it refers to itself as the "Syro-Malabar Catholic Church". But elsewhere, including on the "About Us" page [14] page (which is different from the "About Us" section of the home page) they use "Syro-Malabar Church". This also includes more "official"-like things like pastoral statements, press releases, etc.) where they also use only "Syro-Malabar Church", although I did not conduct a thorough comprehensive search. Other than the main/home page, "Syro-Malabar Church" appears to be the name they use for themselves. It also has the benefit of being a bit more concise. And I don't think anyone is going to be confused, especially if the lead sentence says "also known as the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (not unlike at Catholic Church, where it says also known as the Roman Catholic Church.
 — Archer1234 (t·c) 00:11, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Totally agree. That was the way the article used to be prior to the most recent move ( see ). The article title would be Syro-Malabar Church and the lead section would include the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church also. Logosx127 (talk) 00:21, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dispute dated 7 February[edit]

@Pbritti The source that you have used gives 1599 too as seen the gbooks summary. And removing the Chaldean Catholic metropolitans doesn't make sense considering the fact that the pre-hierarchy bishops are already listed. Logosx127 (talk) 06:27, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that there appears to be reasonable debate about when, exactly, the church entered into its present communion with the Catholic Church. I have deferred to The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church's preferred date, which stood as the standard on the article for some time, but I am willing to see what evidence you have to the contrary. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The SM Church's communion (or merger) with the Catholic Church occured in the sixteenth century after the Schism of 1552 in the COE. I intend to speak on the basis of the books which have described in detail about that church. Synod of Diamper in 1599 led to the merger of the SMC with RC latin padroado. The effect of Coonan Cross Oath of 1653 is controversial, except for the fact that it was against the padroado, and most of the modern historians deny the idea of SMC breaking communion with the RC. The status of the SMC post-1599 was restored in 1662, except for the padroado being replaced with propaganda fide. The current structure of the SMC dates back only to 1887 and I am more inclined towards this date. Logosx127 (talk) 19:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The archives of this talk page have several discussions about the founding date. This discussion [15] is the most recent and appears to be comprehensive, so it would probably be helpful for those interested in participating in this discussion to read through those previous discussions.  — Archer1234 (t·c) 17:27, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, that was between myself and a sockpuppet/DE, so I would not treat that discussion with much weight. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can't cherry pick the date of your own choice. The discussion mentioned above seems to have favoured 1923 by majority opinion. Logosx127 (talk) 18:53, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Three of the parties involved in the last discussion were socks, which you understand is someone using multiple IPs or accounts to manipulate discussion. You seem to have cherry-picked your own preferred dates here (and used errant terminology and MOS in your repeated reversions). Please demonstrate why your preferred dating arrangement is what we should use. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am of the view that you are totally misinterpreting my edits, given the fact that I have added a series of dates insted of one. Cherry picking is its opposite thing and that what you've been doing by striking all but 1662. Logosx127 (talk) 19:10, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Logosx127: You struck the 1662 date here without discussion. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you to focus on to the current version instead of cherry-picking one of the past edits. Logosx127 (talk) 02:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Logosx127: The superior sources favor the 1662 date. Unless you have reason to believe otherwise, it will be restored. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Superior sources in your opinion. In my opinion they are either Catholic pov sources or tertiary sources with the authors having little or no expertise on the SMC history. On the other hand, I favour sources like Perczel and Brock who are universally accepted experts on Syro-Malabar Christianity. Logosx127 (talk) 03:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brock is fine, but you have to prove where these sources explicitly say that the Syro-Malabar's came into being at your preferred date. You can't just say "I prefer X author". ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Already provided in the article with inline citations. Logosx127 (talk) 17:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, what do the sources say. Give a quote. ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:56, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sebastian Brock: This sui juris Catholic Church of the E.-Syr. liturgical tradition represents the continuity of the Catholic ecclesial tradition in South India that came into being in the 16th cent. (see Thomas Christians).
Istvan Perczel: With the foundation of the Syro-Malabar Church in 1887,finally granting an indigenous archbishop to the Malabar Catholics, the movementobtained one of its goals. Logosx127 (talk) 01:56, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Logosx127: The only date that is supported by either of these quotes is 1887. Literally the only date that would qualify is 1887. You should remove all the others. That is it. 50 AD is for Saint Thomas Christian’s (a broader body that is not the Syro-Malabar Church). 1552 is the communion of a portion of the Church of the East with the Catholic Church (not even explicitly mentioned in either source above). 1599 is also not mentioned. Also, the Syro-Malabar Church is not a denomination—it's part of the Catholic Church. ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:37, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
50/52 AD is a traditional date claimed all Saint Thomas Christian denominations. So removing it from here alone does not make any sense unless there's a broader discussion concerning all the STC denominations. Most of sources given here provide the traditional date too. The articles of the Catholic Church, Latin C, Eastern Orthodox also show similar datings. At the same time, it's also to be noted that there are some misconceptions in your comment above. Firstly, the STC is not a denomination or church, it is rather a people. Secondly, determining which is a denomination and which is not is yet to be precisely defined. The CC is one of the religious denominations in Christianity, so are the Oriental Orthodox and EO. But there exist another another method of classification where the Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Greek, Russian, Georgian are considered distinctive denominations. In India, SMC is classified as a separate religious denomination within Christianity. Thirdly, the different dates are mentioned in different sources that are already provided. While I support a triad of dates (50–traditional origin, 1552–Conversion to Eastern Catholicism, 1887–Modern structure), I am not in total disapproval of other dates (1599, 1662, 1663, 1896, 1923). Logosx127 (talk) 06:15, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The only date that you have provided a source for something being established or founded is for the date of 1887. Also, no, that is not how denominations work—you would need a very good source to verify that very unusual statement. I am going to correct your errors from your last edit and move to the triad of dates. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well. I don't agree with you on that totally and I have reverted some of 'your errors' that I've found. Logosx127 (talk) 06:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbritti The discussion is to be done here, NOT in my talkpage. Logosx127 (talk) 15:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's right, which is why I left a warning there. The discussion can continue here. By the way, the Peshitta article on Brittanica fails to verify the claim that it is used by the Syro-Malabar. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:38, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the similar fashion I can reciprocate by putting a warning on your talk page too. But I am not into it as it's not going to solve the dispute. Let a third uninvolved editor evaluate the discussion and edits and issue warning if proper. Logosx127 (talk) 15:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the Britannica source says: Peshitta, (Syriac: “simple” or “common”) Syriac version of the Bible, the accepted Bible of Syrian Christian churches from the end of the 3rd century CE. The SMC is by definition a Syriac Church and therefore the source. Considering it being a generalised citation, I have added another source which explicitly mentions the SMC. Logosx127 (talk) 16:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source that uses any of the dates other than the ones that existed before your modifications to the article and 1887? Any dates that explicitly say "the Syro-Malabar Church began in X year"? Otherwise, the only dates worth considering are those you removed and 1887 (we could also leave 52 AD due to church's claims on their website). ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The underlying issue within the dispute is the fact that I have direct working knowledge on the topic but you don't. You entirely rely on Catholic tertiary sources accessible for you and that's why you are getting easily misled by these handful of tertiary sources. None of the sources that you previously mentioned says "the Syro-Malabar Church began in 1662 year" either. The church website and numerous sources in the article gives the 52 AD date for the foundation of the church. Brock gives a Sixteenth century date and Perczel gives 1887. Meanwhile I totally disagree with the 1662 date due to a number of reasons, first of which is that it's simply incorrect. Logosx127 (talk) 16:09, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SM Church: Denomination or not[edit]

What I understand as your pov is that you recognise the Catholic Church as a denomination and the various Eastern Catholic Churches, in your view, are simply subgroups. Well I don't agree with that pov. Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination. Similarly each of the ECCs is a denomination. Maronites comprise a particular denomination of Christians in the Middle East, similarly Chaldeans, Syriacs, Melkites. The Wikipedia definitions for the word church are given in the disambiguation page church, wherein it is defined as a building of Christian worship, congregation or denomination. The definition for Christian denomination is given as: A Christian denomination is a distinct religious body within Christianity that comprises all church congregations of the same kind, identifiable by traits such as a name, particular history, organization, leadership, theological doctrine, worship style and, sometimes, a founder. It is a secular and neutral term, generally used to denote any established Christian church. Here, the SMC satisfies all the criteria, (1) it is within Christianity, (2) it is comprised of congregations (parishes/dioceses/provinces), (3) well it has its own distinctive name, (4) it has distinct history from that of the CC, (5) it has a well defined organisation, (6) it has its own leadership (the major archbishop being it's worldwide head), (7) East Syriac theological doctrines, (8) Syro-Malabar Rite liturgy and worship style and most notably Saint Thomas as founder (though legendary). Therefore the SMC is indeed a denomination. Logosx127 (talk) 03:08, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Logosx127: If Numerous sources in the article proves that the SMC is a denomination, find a reliable source that does so. Otherwise, you're creating your own definition of denomination and making errant claims to fit the Syro-Malabar Church within it (see Begging the question). By the definition given above, the Society of Jesus could be classified as a denomination. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a ridiculous comparison. The SJ isn't a denomination because it is simply a religious monastic organisation. No one is born into it. And, I am not making a brand new definition, it is already given in Wikipedia. I think you thoroughly require an orientation here.Logosx127 (talk) 07:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To list down two of them,
the official website says: The Syro-Malabar Catholic Church is one of the 23 Eastern (Oriental) Catholic Churches in full communion with Rome. It is the largest Eastern Catholic Church after the Ukrainian Church and the largest of the Saint Thomas Christian (Nazrani) denominations with 5 million believers.
KC ZACHARIAH, 2016 says: Among the denominations in the Christian community, the Syro-. Malabar Catholics are the most dispersed denomination (Religious Denominations of Kerala). Logosx127 (talk) 08:06, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pbritti Do you want further source quotations. I can do so if you insist. Logosx127 (talk) 04:13, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sure! ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, these are some webpages which I found in a brief online search.
1 Cardinal Mar George Alencherry, the head of Kerala's prominent Christian denomination, the Syro Malabar Catholic Church..
2 Telangana, Bishop Raphael Thattil has been elected as major archbishop of the powerful Syro-Malabar Church. The church is the largest denomination of Catholics in India and prominent among the 22 oriental Catholic churches that are in full communion with Rome.
3 Though the Syro-Malabar Church has more than 3.6 million members, more than half a million of them are scattered outside Kerala state, where the church remains the largest Christian denomination.
4 A day after the Syro-Malabar Church's Public Affairs Commission rallied behind Bishop Mar Joseph Kallarangatt in the 'narcotic jihad' row, the denomination 's largest religious publication, Sathyadeepam, has struck a contradictory not
5 One church of the Syro-Malabar denomination in Kerala's Wayanad district has offered 10,000 rupeela's 00) for a couple's fifth child.
6 the holy communion of two souls in the traditional way of this denomination of Christianity.
7 The Syro-Malabar Church, the largest Christian denomination in Kerala, on Wednesday
8Kerala’s Syro-Malabar Church To date, the denomination owns 22 churches in the US.Logosx127 (talk) 17:24, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See, this raises an important question: do you think that this is perhaps more likely a common misnomer, or that each sui iuris church is its own denomination, or that it's just the Syro-Malabar? ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously each of the ECCs is a distinct denomination. Maronites, Melkite catholics, Coptic catholics, Ukranian Greek catholics, Syro-Malabarese, Syro-Malankarese and so on. They are Catholic Christian in religion. The SMC officially calls itself a denomination and the state legally accepts it's self designation. Therefore there's no confusion over whether it's a denomination or not.Logosx127 (talk) 10:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think you're way out of your element there. You'd need to prove that to a lot of other people who won't agree. ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't need to prove anything of this sort. The church website clearly says that it is a denomination and the state authorities legally accepts it's self designation. Individual opinion, let it be yours or mine, cannot change what's given in the official records and websites. There is nothing more to discuss here on the topic. I have already substantiated my position with the church's official website, and sources which are numerous and precise to the matter. Logosx127 (talk) 14:30, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has a tendency to ignore legal definitions like this, especially when they directly contradict scholarly accepted definitions. You're attempting to POV-push, utilizing local definitions extrapolated to a global context. If you want to challenge the precedent set over a decade ago, give it a shot, but don't argue that your solitary disagreement justifies interrupting multiple pages. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is such a ridiculous argument. Actually your argument mostly applies better to your own POV edits, given the official website, online sources provided here and multitude of sources yet to be included, all supporting my argument. You are unilaterally pushing your POV, which would have been okay if you could support it with some sources atleast. Rather you're just putting vague claims of scholarly accepted definitions and sources, none of which you have been able to provide till now. I think you yourself is the said scholar and sources, if I must guess. Meanwhile catholic historian and orientalist Dietmar Winkler also classifies the SMC as a denomination in the Syriac World (2018). I opt to follow the official website and scholarly sources on this matter. Logosx127 (talk) 18:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since you seem convinced that you have stumbled across something with consequences for hundreds of articles, why don't you make note of this at a relevant noticeboard and start a relevant discussion there? ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel it's necessary, on the contrary I find my view totally agreeing with existing Wikipedia consensus and style. Catholicism is a religion and the Catholic Church is a denominational family (ecclesiastically, communion) just like the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and/or Protestant. Logosx127 (talk) 18:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you unwilling to raise this elsewhere, considering every other sui iuris church is described as such and not as a denomination? Are you realizing the argument won't stand up to outside scrutiny? ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I have already replied to this before. Logosx127 (talk) 19:25, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please check the seven sources used for defining a denomination within the article Christian denomination. A denomination, as the Wikipedia definition states isn't a religious term. It is a secular and neutral term that is frequently used as a misnomer. In the context of Christian religion, a denomination is a family of many similar individual/national/particular churches that are bound together historically, though doctrine, organization, leadership and several other aspects. The Church of Nigeria is a national church that is part of the global Anglican church (denomination). The Church of Sweden is a national church that is part of the global Lutheran church (denomination). The Methodist Church of New Zealand is a national church that is part of the global Methodism (denomination). The Assemblies of God is an individual church that is part of global Pentecostalism (denomination). The Russian Orthodox Church is a national church that is part of the larger Eastern Orthodox Church (denomination). Likewise, the Syro-Malabar Church is a constituent particular church of the Roman Catholic church (denomination), for which the Pope is the supreme head. In other words, there may be tens of thousands of individual churches, but only a handful of denominations. I agree that the distinctions between a denomination and an individual/national/particular church is blurred to many people and there are many resources including Wikipedia articles that wrongly call an individual church a denomination.--Macinderum (talk) 08:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Evidently you are confused about these. You are actually confusing Denominational families (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, Anglican Communion, Church of the East, etc) with actual denominations (Syro-Malabar, Latin, Melkite, Maronite, Chaldean, etc (all part of Catholic denominational family), Russian Orthodox, Antiochian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Bulgarian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Georgian Orthodox etc. (all being part of Eastern Orthodox denominational family), Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox etc. (All being Oriental Orthodox in denominational family), Church of England, Marthoma Church (belonging to Anglican denominational family)) Denominational families and actual denominations are two different things. Denominational families are aggregates of similar denominations. These denominations can't be mistermed as national churches. Many of these have international jurisdiction and membership. Denomination is determined in terms of common doctrine, liturgy, culture and self-identification. With respect to the Syro-Malabar Church, its official website and governmental records calls it a denomination and there are a multitude of sources available in the public online field as well as academic and scholarly literature, all supporting the fact that the SMC is indeed a denomination and at the same time part of the Catholic Church denominational family. The entire discourse can be made simple with just one question asked, how would a member of the SMC self identify: as a Catholic or as a Syro Malabar Catholic? The answer is: as a Syro-Malabar Catholic. That's the entire point. Religiously and based on communion he is Catholic, but denominationally he is Syro-Malabar Catholic. His religion or denominational family is indeed headed by the pope, but he isn't part of the denomination which is liturgically, culturally and theologically headed by the pope.Logosx127 (talk) 14:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your viewpoint. Let me cite two sources (1 and 2) used in the article Christian denomination to define the concept. According to these sources, the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, Baptist, Presbyterianism, Pentecostalism etc. are major Christian denominations. Most importantly, the Roman Catholic Church is one single denomination headed by the Roman pontiff. I have not found any source that says that it is a loose coalition of 24 completely independent denominations. Do you have any authoritative source that says so? Even for the Eastern Catholic Churches the Pope is the ultimate authority. The patriarchs and major archbishops of Eastern Catholic Churches are of lower rank and subordinate to the Pope. Unfortunately, there seems to be a some confusion on this topic that reflects in available sources, because of which anyone can find sources to support their point of view. Personally, I feel that this discussion needs to take place in a different forum with more visibility. We cannot change the meaning of Christian denomination based on the notions of two or three editors. If you are able to gain consensus in your favour, I'll accept it.--Macinderum (talk) 08:22, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although I totally understand what you are saying, I cannot agree wholly with it. First of all you need to distinguish between denominational family and individual denomination. Of course, the Roman Catholic Church or the Latin Catholic Church is a denominational led by the pope, spiritually, culturally, liturgically and doctrinally. But the remaining 23 Eastern Catholic Churches are distinct churches and denominations which, by recognising the pope as their overall leader, forms a denominational family called the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is unified by common religious faith, and most importantly the pope as overall leader. Meanwhile, each of the Eastern Catholic Churches is united within itself not just by common religious faith and overall leader, but also by common doctrine, culture, liturgy, spirituality and tradition. Hence the Latin and the Eastern Catholic Churches are denominations while the Catholic Church is their denominational family. For example, let's just look into the Syro-Malabar Church. The Syro-Malabar Church has a distinct religious liturgy very different from that used by the pope and the Roman Latin Catholic Church. SMC has its own theology and doctrine. Nestorius is a condemned heretic in the RC Church but he is a venerated saint in the SMC and one of the liturgical prayers is named after him. Rosary, unleavened bread, clerical celibacy are other unique features of the RCC which the ECCs do not follow. For a Western reader, Catholic and Roman Catholic are synonymous, but it's not the case in places where Eastern Catholic Churches are present. This differentiation is more profound in the case of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Church of the East, and many Anglican Churches, like the Church of England and Marthoma Church.
At the same time I totally disagree with you on your comment "anyone can find sources to support their point of view". It is not about anyone finding some random sources available online. The sources I provided are of atmost important such as the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the Church and legal as well as academic sources. You cannot simply disregard those sources just because you think in a different way or you have a dissenting pov. Hope that's clear. Logosx127 (talk) 12:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See, if a Christian body is united by a single leader and hierarchy that can (and does) act across all portions of the church [note: it's a single church, unlike in Anglicanism, which Macinderum appears to mistakenly imply has a single "Anglican Church"], that's a single denomination. The pope can impose decisions upon the Syro-Malabar (something the Archbishop of Canterbury can't do to the Episcopal Church in the United States). The Syro-Malabar are a sui iuris church—that is objectively true. Claims they are a denomination are marginal and contradictory. Barring any further support for this solitary attempt to subvert longstanding and widespread consensus, the previous norm should be restored. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am just following the OFFICIAL WEBSITE of the church and official records. I don't have any problem if you wish to continue dictating in a fantasy world. The Catholic Church, as I have already said, is a denominational family led by the Pope. The Latin Church or the Roman Catholic Church is the distinctive denomination led by the pope. The words such as Church, sui juris Church etc. are purely religious or ecclesiastical terminologies which cannot be applied generally. The secular and general terms in use are religion, denominational family and denomination. Here the religion is Christianity, denominational family is the Catholic Church and the denomination is the Syro-Malabar Church.
Your comment: The pope can impose decisions upon the Syro-Malabar is partially untrue. The pope simply cannot impose his decisions in every field. The bishops are to be appointed by the Patriarch and the Patriarch is the supreme authority on liturgy. That does not mean that pope is devoid of his powers, the pope simply do not have that extend of powers in the ECC's as he does in the Latin Church. Just because a person in charge has authority at different strata, the strata does not get mixed up into one. Authority of the pope as the head of the Roman/Latin Catholic Church (appointment of bishops, legislations, doctrinal and liturgical promulgations etc.) is different from the authority he holds as the Head of the Catholic Church. For another example, the British Monarch is the head of the State of not just the United Kingdom, but also the entire fourteen Commonwealth Realms including Canada, Australia and the New Zealand. He can potentially exercise a wide range of authority, though almost always delegated to the respective Governor Generals. This simply does not mean that those are colonies or devoid of sovereign statehood. Similarly, the Pope enjoys universal jurisdiction throughout the Catholic Church Communion or denominational family. But almost all of the day to day administration of the ECCs (including appointment of bishops, administrators, regular legislations, liturgical promulgations etc.) is undertaken by their patriarchs, who act in their own capacity as 'Head of the Church' and not as some kind of a delegate of the pope. Denomination is not determined by who controls authority (especially outside the Catholic Church denominational family), but by the liturgy, culture, doctrine, spirituality, history and self-identification. The SMC identifies itself as a denomination, state authorities recognise it as such and the authoritative academic sources who study the SMC in detail also classifies it as a denomination. I just do not need to disregard these most important sources in favour of some old, western oriented (the problem is not the fact that these are western, but the inherent confusion they have over the Roman Catholic/Latin denomination with entire Catholic Church denominational family) and non-academic tertiary sources. Logosx127 (talk) 09:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, barring something that firmly demonstrates that this isn't simply a fluke of nomenclature as used in India, you will need consensus in your favor to overturn the preexisting consensus. Given that the Catholic Church is consistently listed as a denomination across over a thousand articles, I please understand a broader consensus would be necessary. ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's no such consensus as of now in Wikipedia. I have seen multiple pages, files and articles which explicitly and correctly list the Catholic Church as a denominational family. For example see List of Christian denominations, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is listed along with the Roman/Latin and other Eastern Catholic Churches as denominations under the subheading 'Catholic Church' (denominational family). Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination). Note that Roman Catholicism (meaning Catholicism obviously) is listed not as a denomination but as a tradition. Similarly Oriental Orthodoxy is listed as a tradition and Coptic Orthodox as a denomination within it.
I do not think I need to create a new consensus since my view totally consistent with that explicitly favoured here in Wikipedia. However there are obviously a number of editors here, including you, who confuses the Catholic Church with the Roman/Latin Catholic Church and cannot differentiate between denominational family and denomination. You simply cannot disregard the OFFICIAL WEBSITE and the official and academic records to foster your POV. Logosx127 (talk) 14:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Roman Catholicism is listed as a “tradition” because wikipedia is a secular source. Polish National Church or Old Catholic Churches are an example. These churches do not accept the primacy of the pope but keep liturgical aspects. 207.96.32.81 (talk) 22:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's been more than a week. Nobody else agrees. Unless you want this to go elsewhere for discussion, I think we can safely say this conversation has been exhausted. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia already agrees, no matter what your POV is. Christianity can be taxonomically divided into six main groups: the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Within these six main traditions are various Christian denominations (for example, the Coptic Orthodox Church is an Oriental Orthodox denomination). Logosx127 (talk) 00:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see, you think sui iuris is as much autonomy as an autocephalous church. Interesting, but not true. Anyhow, you again failed to get support here and found two editors who actively disagreed. Let it go or find somewhere else to take it up. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:14, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The SMC has already been listed as a denomination in numerous Wikipedia articles and your disapproval or another random user, who wakes up from their long slumber just inorder to put a disapproval is not going to change this fact. And stop putting your words into my mouth. What I have said is what I have said, the SMC is indeed a denomination. If you want to prove otherwise, create consensus elsewhere and come back.Logosx127 (talk) 07:09, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What would your response be to 14 eparchy articles recognizing the Catholic Church as the denomination of the Syro-Malabar Church? Or to the Handbook of Denominations–"the gold standard for reference works about religious bodies in America"–describing the Latin, Syro-Malabar, Ukrainian Greek Catholic, Syriac Catholic, and Ruthenian Greek Catholic Churches all as part of the same denomination (the Catholic Church)? It would seem that references to the Syro-Malabar Church as a denomination are dismissed by scholars of Christian denominations. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With this latest reply of yours, I have come to the conclusion that there's no point in a discussion with you as your arguments are seemingly cunning and ridiculous. All these denomination Catholic Church, sui juris church Syro-Malabar were actually put by you yourself very recently as proven from [16] [17] [18] This proves its simply your personal, biased and isolated POV and original research. If you were honestly looking for the existing Wikipedia consensus, you should have considered List of Christian denominations, and Christian denomination for reference, were the Syro-Malabar Church has been already listed as a denomination. If you are looking outside for reliable sources, the tertiary sources are of much less value compared to academic secondary sources such as the Syriac World (2019), an extremely important reliable source used as the main source in multiple articles in Wikipedia, wherein the Syro-Malabar Church is mentioned as a denomination. Thirdly, the SMC's own OFFICIAL WEBSITE too holds itself to he a denomination. This makes all your arguments as baseless as a house of cards, especially taking your own edits and masquerading those as result of consensus. If you genuinely want to change the existing Wikipedia consensus and list the Catholic Church as a denomination instead of Christian tradition/denominational family and the SMC as a non-denomination instead of the present status of denomination, you should first discuss on relevant articles and spaces elsewhere where you would get better visibility and make corresponding changes in the consensus. If you do so, you can potentially change this article in the similar fashion. But until then, the SMC will remain a denomination, no matter what your POV is. Logosx127 (talk) 23:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's allow others to answer. ~ Pbritti (talk) 13:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's a good move. Let's follow the consensus. But I believe it would have been better if you had opened the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity where it would have been visible to a larger audience. Logosx127 (talk) 14:48, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I encouraged you to open a discussion elsewhere six days ago. I selected the forum with the highest likelihood of expert editors participation. Thus far, three editors have disagreed with you. So, I'd say we should follow the consensus, too. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not under a biased title for sure. As I've already said, how'd you expect a Catholic to say that his church isn't one? Logosx127 (talk) 15:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look at WP:OR. No reliable source considers sui-iuris churches to be separate denominations.207.96.32.81 (talk) 22:50, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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