Talk:List of subcultures

Merge into List of Lifestyles

First off, calling anything a "subculture" promoted the POV that it is somehow less than "the rest of the culture". Yes, originally the term may have been intended to be NPOV of now it has acquired this connotation. In any case, these two pages are very similar and should probably be merged anyway. Question is, should the list be sorted alphabetically (like here) or by category (like at List of lifestyles? --STGM 01:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree the label of subculture does not have negative connotations, it does not mean less than the rest of the culture, but simply a smaller category. The same way you have species and sub-species, it simply allows you to differentiate at a more detailed level. And the difference between lifestyle and subculture is HUGE! A lifestyle is a way that a person chooses to live their life. Yes many people may choose the same lifestyle but it is based on the individual choices of that person. A sub-culture, by virtue of being a culture, requires interaction between members who identify themselves along some sort of common interest. It may be that many of the items listed on the List of Lifestyles page are the same or similar to those listed here but that is a problem with the content of the other page and not with this one. (The talk page on List of Lifestyles goes through this problem in great detail.) The solution then would definitely not be to merge the two pages, but to collaboratively rework the List of Lifestyles page by agreeing on a general definition of lifestyle and removing or relocating everything that does not belong there. JenLouise 03:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to add that The syllable Sub in SubCulture can mean Under-culture of a main Culture. It can also mean Subversive culture which can mean to over throw the main culture see Subversion. I think it would be a good idea to make a basic set of rules as to what a Subculture is and isn't and place this at the top. EG it is not a Hobby, or a Musical or media Genre. It can be quite confusing as many subcultures are associated to specific Genres of music. It could reference a set of Genres also. Even classical music and fine art are associated to normal and High Culture. A good strong set of rules would help define what it is (not too wordy or it will be misunderstood.). ADogNamedGromit -- July 2 2010

folk?

could a folk music subculture be listed. I personally know one exists, it has 'beleifs', certainly has style (lots of beards/ hippyish) , obviously music tastes, there's often a fairly closed community of folkies (a lot of audiances at folk gigs are folkies) , drink tastes (real ale/guiness) and people within this subculture are recognisable 'outside' the enviroment. the only reason I haven't added it is if it isn't recognised elsewhere (by people 'outside' the culture) unlike stuff like emo/indie culture, this isn't just limited to musicians by the way, theres loads of 16+ year old slightly hippyish students who follow folk bands around in my area ( it tends to be sixth form age +wards rather than school age.)

The article states that a sub-culture "is a culture or set of people with distinct behavior and beliefs within a larger culture. The essence of a subculture, that distinguishes it from other social groupings, is awareness of style and differences in style, in clothing, music or other interests".

Does manga artist dress different than other? No. Does they have any disinct behavior or belief? Not really. They have a hobby, like everyone else. But a hobby is not the same as a culture. The list is more about "what is cool" than "what is subcultures".

For this reason, I have cut away a lot of the examples. The following has been removed:

• Fandom
  • Furry fandom
  • Trekkie
  • Otaku
• Import scene
• Gamer
  • Artscene
    • Emo
  • Disco
  • Demoscene
• Sexual subcultures such as
  • BDSM subculture
  • Swinging
  • Sexual fetish subculture
    • Leather subculture
  • body modification and tattoo subcultures
• Thematic subcultures
  • Cyberpunk
  • Steampunk
• Illegal drug subcultures

--Kasper Hviid 18:57, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Many of these do qualify perfectly well as discernible subcultures, though. The only ones I can see that wouldn't are "Import scene", "Disco", "Demoscene". I suspect "Cyberpunk" and "Steampunk" are questionable. But all the others definitely qualify. I've left the entire list in this article pending further discussion - David Gerard 19:45, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank for your answer! I am not sure what you mean by "discernible" subcultures. Is it a word from sociology, or do you mean people we can catagorize, like "dog-owners" or "manga-artist"?

It looks like we have two different definitions:

1. Sub-culture is when a group has a lifestyle, ethics or belief which is unusually far from the culture they live in. So far, that some people think of it as "them" and "us". Examples: Punkers, expatriates, gangs, homless people.
2. Sub-culture is when a group has a shared interest, which they find so important that it becomes part of their identity. Example: Doctors, unemployed people, vegetarians, programmers, athletes, etc.

Either a small culture within a larger culture, or something a group of people has in common!

I find the first definition most usable. This would also be the literal sense of the word. But I am no expert, its just the way I have noticed the word being used. Oxford Advanced Learner's dictionary seems to support the second definition, though. --Kasper Hviid 00:27, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The second definition is much closer to the one used by sociologists, which is what the article subculture is about. (I'm not a sociologist myself, so please don't rely on me for precise terminology ;-) The first isn't really, but could be bent into the shape of the second one - David Gerard 22:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Im puzzled .. I dont know what the true meaning of the word is. Most definitions I see online supports 1), but that doesnt say much.--Kasper Hviid 16:03, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think that this list should just be put back into the article about subcultures. Still, I think it would be better if the list was less focused on 'cool' subcultures, but instead had a more broad view. (Examples like doctors, cancer-patients, farmers, and such). --Kasper Hviid 10:20, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In culture, it is stated that all cultures have key components: values, norms, institutions, and artifacts. Well, isn't a subculture just a little culture of its own? So if there's an item on the list lacking one of the key components, it doesn't qualify as a subculture. If, however, it does have all of those in some way or another, it deserves to stay. That's my two cents. --CorduroyB 3:30, 07 Sep 2006 (EST)

Some groups that do not seem like subcultures at first glance, can be subcultures of amazing depth. Take gamers for example. At first they seem to be isolated loners just playing their games. That is wrong. They have conventions, their have norms, some speak a specilized language (leet), They have their artifacts in the shirsts they wear promotying things, they have their own values and norms. Tell me, how are they NOT a subculture? When you look at that, think how you can apply it to all the others.

The values and norms part is easy to apply to them. Artifacts are what they make just for the people who share the same interests as them. The insitutions are their organized gatherings, or other such things.

Come to think of it, it would also apply for doctors, lawyers, pet owners, the homeless and many other people. Corrupt one (talk) 22:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

order of list?

from what i can see there is no order to items on this page; how about either alphabetical or maybe in 'decade of origin' order? --MilkMiruku 09:34, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Subcultures are very myriad-to define any of these under one category would be an imposibility. This list is by no means complete or in need of an order by general items. A list by era and starting points would be an excellent idea. --Dremast3 19:53, March 13 2006

If there is no objective or obvious order, we do it alphabetically. This is not an article, it's a list. --Cheeser1 (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Deathrock

Deathrock is listed as a branch of the punk subculture. Surely it has just as much (if not more) in common with goth?

Systematic bias

This list pretty much only deals with Western subcultures, and it really needs to mention subculture of non-Western culture. Also, it needs to be organized into what each subculture is a subculture of.

Example(these people had nothing better to do):

• Subcultures of Western culture
  • blah
  • blahblah
    • blahblahblah(blah)
  • Bluuuu

• Subcultures of blurk (I'm not feeling very creative today.)
  • blurk
  • blurk
    • blurkblurk
  • bleep

I agree it seem to focus on western subcultures, but that is where the editors are mainly coming from. I am sure that the forign language sections of wikipedia, such as Chinesse, reflect their own subcultures more then western ones. After all, it is hard to read many languaegs, and find referance material in those languages focusing on subcultures in just one place. I am also pretty sure that other article have such a basis. The English section of Wikipedia is mainly written by westerns, using Western referance material that is made by research into Western cultures (or in this case, subcultures). All I can recommend is finding someone who can read and write a forign language like japanesse and have them translate the referances from their own languages. Corrupt one (talk) 22:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

rude boys

rude boys are listed here as a subsection of punk.

however rude boy culture started in Jamaica in the sixties, long before punk came about.

This has also ties to Ska music, specifically "The Specials" which was called Rudeboy SKA, and is type of music listen to by Mod_(subculture) and members of Scooter Clubs in England.

See Ska_punk --- ADogNamedGromit July 02 2010

Template

Is there a template for subcultures? If not, I'd like to see/contribute to the creation of one. mwazzap 04:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be in the subculture article? If not, then remember, only use VERIFIBLE sources, and no OR. I would be interested in such a template. Corrupt one (talk) 22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Hip-Hop lifestyle

could the hip hop culture really be called a subculture? I mean, you hear about it all the time, BET for instance.Angelofdeath275 02:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Needs new structure

This list needs to have a better structure to distinguish it from the category with the same name. Otherwise it serves no useful purpose and will be nominated for deletion.

I would suggest possibly listing them by decade, or other suitable time-based segmentation.--ZayZayEM 02:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Townies

• I'm not really sure if this qualifies as a subculture. It's really more of a slang term than anything. Eyeball kid 17:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken "A Townie" is slang in New Brunswick for a person from a large city. In New Brunswick your a Townie if your from St.John. I don't think it is a subculture. ADogNamedGromit - July 02 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by ADogNamedGromit (talk • contribs) 19:22, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

ploc

someone need to create a article about the ploc subculture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.79.28.79 (talk) 00:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What is ploc? I can find no definition online, in dictionaries, or elsewhere that resembles any sort of subculture. --Cheeser1 (talk) 01:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Groupies?

Would they be considered a sub-culture? They do follow the definition of a sub-culture ("...a culture or set of people with distinct behavior and beliefs within a larger culture.") The larger culture being hip-hop, punk rock, etc.Demoman87 16:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No. That's far too vague/poorly-defined. Remember, this is a technical term, not a slang or widely-applicable label. --Cheeser1 19:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, how do they differ from the rest of their groups? Also, have you found REFERANCES to them being a subculture? Remember, everything added has to be referanceable. Corrupt one (talk) 22:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Classical music

Are there any subcultures of classical music lovers? 89.236.214.174 (talk) 12:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

No, unless you can find some evidence that such a subculture verifiably exists. Most musical styles/genres do not immediately or automatically define some sort of subculture. --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Cheeser is correct. A Subculture may form AROUND a type of music, such as punk, but the music itself is not what defines a subculture. Corrupt one (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I found some classical-music "fans" ([1], [2], [3]), and I guess they might be described as classical music subcultures. Abdullais4u (talk) 07:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You guess? --Cheeser1 (talk) 09:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

In the list, we have house music fans, motorcycle riders, new wave music fans, so why don't include classical music fans? Or classical music couldn't manage to gain some sort of subculture around itself? It seems, we're just ignoring them. Abdullais4u (talk) 11:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you understand how a list works on Wikipedia. Furthermore, your logic is highly flawed - Wikipedia is not perfect, you cannot cite other items on the list as automatic indicators that your analogous item should be on the list. It may be the case that none of them belong on the list (or that your analogy is inadequate). --Cheeser1 (talk) 16:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Remember, everything added should be REFERANCABLE AND VERIFIABLE! If it is not, then itr counts as OR, and is not allowed! Also, tell me WHAT culture they have of their own? How does it differ from mainstream culture? If it does not, then how can it could as a subculture? If you are talking about educated people who enjoy clasical music, then you are just talking about a subsection of society, and looking at one part that they sometimes have in common.

Motorcycle triders MAY be considered a subculture, IF THEIR BEHAVIOR ATTIDUTES AND LIFE FOCUSES ON THE BIKES! You also need referances to argue this. If there is no referances from verifiable and reliable resources, it can't be included. Corrupt one (talk) 22:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind, however, that this list will not contain references (e.g. for bikers) because it is a list. The references and verifiable information will be in the relevant article. Considering the fact that we don't even have an article on "classical music culture," (as far as I know) I'm not sure how it could ever be included on this list. --Cheeser1 (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I gave references (see above for links), and what else d'you want? You don't recognize CM fans as a subculture, just because they not wear t-shirts with Mozart, Monteverdi, Vivaldi faces on them, or don't make, say, Beethoven-like-hairstyle? Abdullais4u (talk) 13:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Real sources. That means reliable, independent, third-party sources that are editorially or peer reviewed and then published. --Cheeser1 (talk) 15:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

90% of this list is unsourced OR, half of it is simply music genres. Can it be salvaged it should it go to an afd? I don't think there are that many actual real sourced subculture for the list. --neonwhite user page talk 00:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't want deletion but it definitely needs correction

I think it is a good idea to have a list of subcultures. I have been interested in finding one myself. But I agree, we need to come up with stricter standards for what qualifies as a subculture and what does not. I'll put my head toward that goal.

I agree that organization should be alphabetized but grouped by what main culture they are a minority to.

Computer art scene -- I think this is a hobby instead of a subculture.
Cosplayers -- This is also a hobby.
Deaf culture -- This one is definitely a subculture and I might be able to find the references to verify that.
Disco -- This is a genre of music, not a subculture.
Emo -- This also is a genre.
Fandom --this is a hobby.
Folk music scene -- This is a genre.
Furry fandom -- Furry would be the subculture. Furry Fandom is a hobby.
Gamer -- This is a hobby.
Gangsta rap -- This is a genre.
Gay skinhead -- Gay is a subculture and Skinhead is a subculture but I don't know if Gay Skinhead qualifies as a subculture or merely people that are in two subcultures at the same time.
Goth subculture -- This one is a subculture.
Graffiti artists -- This is a hobby.
Grungers -- This one is questionable.
Hacker culture -- This is a hobby.
Hip hop culture -- This is a genre.
Hippie -- This is most definitely a subculture.
Hipster -- This is a slang term and most definitely not a subculture.
House music fans -- A genre.
Indie (culture) -- A genre.
Jock (subculture) -- Since when has there been a subculture of jocks. Jocks are a type of person but not a cultural identity.
Leather subculture -- This one is questionable.
Lolita Fashion -- This is a fashion trend. This is not a subculture.
Mat Rempit -- This sounds like an individual.
Metalheads -- A genre.
Motorcycle club member -- A club is not a subculture.
Motorcycle rider -- There is a subculture of bikers but not all motorcycle riders are in that subculture so we need to rename this one.
National Socialist black metal -- This one is a combination of a political philosophy and a genre. Neither of which is a subculture.
New Age -- This is a religion. Not a subculture.
New Wave music fans -- How many genres are going to be passed off as subcultures. Wouldn't you rather have a list of genres.
Nudism -- This is a definite subculture.
Pop punk -- Genre.
Preppy -- Slang.
Punk subculture -- This one is questionable but probably a genre.
Queer culture -- This is the wrong name to use for this subculture.
Rave -- Hobby.
Redneck -- Type of person.
Redskin (subculture) -- Is this another derogatory name for Native American.
Rocker (subculture) -- Genre.
Skate punk -- Hobby.
Skinhead -- Subculture.
Straight edge -- Questionable.
Swing Kids -- At least someone included a historical and non-American reference but it's still questionable whether it's a subculture or not.
Swinging -- Questionable. Might be a hobby.
Trekkie -- Fans of a genre are not a subculture.
Vampire lifestyle -- Hobby.
Veganism -- Questionable.
Vegetarianism -- Health habit.
Yuppie -- slang. --Bejjinks (talk) 07:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the best way forward is to list what can be sourced as a subculture and see what we have. Just to correct Rocker (subculture) was actually a subculture centered on motorcycles and not just a genre. --neonwhite user page talk 12:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

• Bejjinks, you are right about some of those, but totally wrong about others. You should actually read the articles before casting judgements. The key to deciding whether a topic should be on this list is whether its article demonstrates that it is a subculture. Also, the articles should only be listed alphabetically. Any attempt at organizing them differently would be purely based on personal opinion, aka original research.Spylab (talk) 22:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

That's not actually true, there is no set way to classify lists. See Wikipedia:LISTS#Organization. it's not original research as it's not a content issue. --neonwhite user page talk 02:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Some I agree I would not consider subcultures, but I am no expert in those areas. However, deciding ourselves would make it OR. If something is not mentioned to BE a subculture, then we can't include it as one. For example, metalheads can have their own subculture. The hardcore audiance for it act different, have different tastes, and dress different from so so called mainstream of society. New age is not just a religion, but a lifestyle. I actually do not know WHAT the new age religion is, and I try to study different faiths for a laugh! There are many more things there I could mention.

On Wikipedia a golden rule is that unless you can find referances to a fact, it is not a fact. Corrupt one (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Alot of the individual articles are unsourced so they really need dealing with first, but it's a major task. --neonwhite user page talk 02:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I may not know about all those subcultures. In fact, I didn't include any of the items that I didn't even have an educated guess about. I am suggesting we come up with criteria and the number one criteria is adequate references. Because merely seeing the name of a subculture says absolutely nothing about what that subculture is unless you happen to know that subculture. I thought about it today and I think another criteria is that it involve a number of different areas of culture. So fans of Jewel would not be a subculture because, even if they get together and talk about music all the time, they only have one culture area in common: music. They might all dress differently, have different tastes in art and literature, etceteras. --Bejjinks (talk) 03:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

We cannot make decisions on what constitues a subculture here, that would be OR. It's a term that was defined by sociologists but you are correct in that a subculture is usually consider more than common interests or fashion. Politics, religion, ethnicity, behaviour usually play a primary role and fashion etc is usually just an indicator of or even a creation of a subculture rather than a way to define one. --neonwhite user page talk 03:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

ok, i think some are common sense and should be kept unless contended, as this is an encyclopedia, we should be looking to avoid the common misuse of the term to describe things like fashions, trends, styles, stereotypes, interest groups, fetish groups, political parties, religions, music genres, fan groups etc. Although some of these are part of a subculture they don't define them. After doing some checking i think the ones that we can safely include (without OR) are any others should be removed and add as and when they can be sourced. : -

• BDSM - probably not too controversial and common sense
• Bills - based on sources in the article
• Deaf culture - well sourced in the article
• Freeganism - well sourced in the article
• Goth - uncontroversial
• Greaser (subculture) - uncontroversial
• Hippie - uncontroversial
• Hardline (subculture) - uncontroversial
• LGBT culture - uncontroversial
• Mod (lifestyle) - well sourced
• Nudism - uncontroversial
• Pachuco - well sourced article
• Punk subculture - uncontroversial
• Rocker (subculture) - uncontroversial
• Rude boy - uncontroversial
• Straight edge - uncontroversial

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Neon white (talk • contribs) 18:30, 14 May 2008

spring cleaning time

I'll try to sort the list a bit. I also put on this list the comments of User:Bejjinks and User:Neon white. Notice that the article was proviously called "list of subcultures and lifestyles".

• Y Anarcho-punk EN: a punk subculture. Found a thesis [4] and a lecture [5]. A google scholar search throws a lot of weak sources making the connection. The article cites this book from Omnibus Press.
• N B-boy probably a subculture. EN: this the name for a person following Hip hop subculture
• Y Bachelor EN: well, I couldn't believe it when I saw it, but google scholar turns up tons of sources in sociology and history journals [6](most are pay-per-view so I'm not citing them), and many of them refer to this book written by Chudacoff
• Y BDSM - probably not too controversial and common sense EN: agree, buts link to specific section BDSM#Scene:_subculture_and_public
• Y Beatnik EN: a distortion of the Beat Generation into a media stereotype, from Beatnik_(disambiguation)
• Y Bills - based on sources in the article EN: agree. very obscure subculture in an african country many years ago. From the description it's definitely a subculture but it's going to be a pain to find sources for it.
• N Black Metal EN: genre, subculture claim is unsourced
• Y Bodybuilding EN: google scholar turns up a lot of sources, some of them with detailed analysis
• Y Bohemianism EN: probably a lifestyle appears to be a counterculture, and an influence to the hippie subculture
• Y Bōsōzoku EN: well sourced claim
• N Brats EN: adjective or archeotype, no shared social values
• N Computer art scene -- I think this is a hobby instead of a subculture. EN: agree, no shared social values at all
• Y Casuals EN: appears to be sourced
• N Chavs EN: slang term for a type of clothing
• Y Cosplayers -- This is also a hobby. EN: actually, looks an emerging subculture google scholar has a few sources of varying quality [7] It's part of Otaku subculture
• Y Cyber (subculture) EN: unsourced, but a clear subculture
• Y Dark scene EN: a term covering parts of several subcultures
• Y Deaf culture - well sourced in the article. This one is definitely a subculture and I might be able to find the references to verify that. EN: no opinion looking at sources, it's extremely well sourced and throughly studied
• N Disco -- This is a genre of music, not a subculture. EN: genre
• Y Emo -- This also is a genre. EN: also a fashion, but not a subculture also referred to as a subculture: book "Contemporary Youth Culture: An International Encyclopedia" [8], book by an assistant professor on sociology [9], article on psychiatry journal[10], article on The Times [11]. Google Scholar gives a few more papers [12], including a study unpublished paper centered on emo [13]. There is a looong discussion at Talk:Emo#Actually_a_Subculture.3F
• Y Fandom --this is a hobby. EN: it fits the description of subculture according to the description on the article. I found a book that is cited by a lot of other books and papers [14], and by "a lot", I mean a lot of papers [15] and a good bunch of books [16]. There were more sources, but almost all cited this one. Sources relate it to "fan culture" or "fan cultures".
• Y Fetish subculture EN: found it while looking at other entries
• N Flapper appears to be one of the lifestyles / fashion syles that were used by the youth subculture in the 1920s[17][18][19]. Not a subculture of its own.
• N Freeganism - well sourced in the article EN: it says it's a lifestyle, not a subculture
• N Folk music scene -- This is a genre. EN: agree
• N Flogger (fashion) EN: fashion style
• Y Freak scene EN: unsure yes
• Y Furry fandom -- Furry would be the subculture. Furry Fandom is a hobby. EN: furry is a disambiguation page, this is the correct article
• N Gabber EN: genre
• N Gamer -- This is a hobby. EN: article does not even mention subcultures
• N Gangsta rap -- This is a genre. EN: genre
• Y Gay skinhead -- Gay is a subculture and Skinhead is a subculture but I don't know if Gay Skinhead *qualifies as a subculture or merely people that are in two subcultures at the same time. EN: moving to appear on the same line as Skinhead
• Y Glam metal -- EN: article does not mention subcultural stuff, but I could find some sources: Encyclopedia of Contemporary British Culture calls it a "short lived subculture in the early 1970s"[20], passing mentions at books of how it's a subcultural antecedent of other stuff [21], a disdained cult like disco and ted revival [22]. Also some articles at sort-of-obscure journals complaining that nobody writes about glam because it's embarrasing [23](from the defunct Australian Journal of Cultural Studies[24] which later became Cultural Studies journal[25]), and a "Fringe cultures" article [26] from Jump_Cut_(journal)
• Y Glitter rock, see Glam metal above
• Y Goth subculture -- This one is a subculture. uncontroversial EN: agree
• Y Gothic Lolita -- EN: Amazingly, this is an actual subculture [27][28], not so sure about Lolita fashion, which appears to be a fashion and would need sources
• Y Graffiti artists or Graffers -- This is a hobby. Part of Hip hop
• Y Greaser (subculture) - uncontroversial
• N Grungers -- This one is questionable. EN: genre, and redirects to Grunge music
• N Grebo EN: probably a subculture see Talk:Grebo#subculture_status
• Y Hacker culture -- This is a hobby. EN: using instead Hacker_(free_and_open_source_software) and Hacker_(computer_security). Found a few good sources, added two to the entry here.
• Y Hardline (subculture) - uncontroversial EN: agree
• Y Hip hop culture -- This is a genre. EN: yeah, but it has a subculture attached to it
• Y Hippie -- This is most definitely a subculture. uncontroversial EN: agree
• Y Hipster -- This is a slang term and most definitely not a subculture. EN: disagree, see Hipster (1940s subculture) and Hipster (contemporary subculture)
• N House music fans -- A genre. EN: agree, part of dance culture at most
• N Import scene EN: totally unsourced, article describe no social aspects at all
• N Indie (culture) -- A genre. EN: disagree, see its article ooopsie, article got nuked for being all original research, see Talk:Indie_(culture)#Article_should_be_deleted. Punk158: i dont know about in the usa but in the UK Indie is a youth sub culture, mainly of teenagers who listen to indie rock and indie pop and shop in places like Topshop
• Y Industrial music, has a few sources explaining it, (some of?) their members are called "Rivetheads"
• Y Jock (subculture) -- Since when has there been a subculture of jocks. Jocks are a type of person but not a cultural identity. EN: stereotype, and not listed at High_school_subcultures
• Y Juggalos EN: looks like a subculture. Very obscure subculture, it appears that it's a subculture inside heavy metal culture, appearing as a rebellion against mainstream heavy metal. I see some sociological analysis of how it's manipulated by the mainstream.
• Y Juggling (Modern juggling culture) EN: very obscure, some references to being a subculture by several newspapers boston.com cnn (mentions that the author of the article is working on a book about juggling subculture)
• Y Junglist EN: unsourced, but looks enough of a subculture to not strike it out
• Y Leather subculture -- This one is questionable. EN: looks good to me
• Y LGBT culture - uncontroversial EN: agree
• N Lolita Fashion (see Gothic Lolita) -- This is a fashion trend. This is not a subculture. EN: article claims it to be a subculture, but it no social aspects described at all
• N Mat Rempit -- This sounds like an individual. EN: Malasyan illegal street racers, article mentions no social aspects
• N Metalheads -- A genre. EN: lifestyle, lacks social aspects, the genre would be Metal music
• N Metrosexual -- a term to describe a type of heterosexual person [29] "In other words, the metrosexual is a heterosexually indentified male (...) At the present time, metrosexual is seen more as a label than as an identity. In other words, obne may not identify himself as being metrosexual; however, if someone were to label him as metrosexual he would probably not deny it." [30] (page 289)
• Y Mod (lifestyle) - well sourced EN: agree
• N Mod revival EN: this is the music genre article of the mod subculture
• N Motorcycle club member -- A club is not a subculture. EN: lacks social aspects
• Y Motorcycle rider -- There is a subculture of bikers but not all motorcycle riders are in that subculture so we need to rename this one. EN: the cultural aspects are on Motorcycling
• Y National Socialist black metal -- This one is a combination of a political philosophy and a genre. Neither of which is a subculture. EN: correct article would be Nazi_punk, which is a subset of Punk subculture
• Y New Age -- This is a religion. Not a subculture. EN: see article, it spawned a subculture later
• Y New Romanticism EN: appears to be a musical style, a lifestyle at most oops, this one is a subculture. From ANZJS: The Australian & New Zealand Journal of Sociology [31] "The following spectacular subculture, New Romanticism included both women and blacks as active constituents and constituted its Other in the history of ..." (quote shown at google results)
• N New Wave music fans -- How many genres are going to be passed off as subcultures. Wouldn't you rather have a list of genres. EN: genre, existence of a subculture is unsourced
• Y Nudism -- This is a definite subculture. uncontroversial EN: agree
• Y Otaku EN: I see that the article says "Sometimes the term is used to describe something pertaining to the subculture that surrounds anime, idols and games in Japan". I assume that there exists a better term that refers directly to that subculture instead of referring to its members. I'll leave this term for now.
• Y Otherkin EN: appears to be an actual subculture
• N Omorashi EN: this is part of Fetish subculture
• Y Pachuco - well sourced article EN: agree
• N Psychobilly EN: genre and fashion style
• N Pop punk -- Genre. EN: genre, part of punk subculture
• Y Punk subculture - uncontroversial. This one is questionable but probably a genre. EN: subculture, it spawned ideologies, literature, films.
• Y Preppy/Preppies -- Slang. EN: not a subculture Actually, I looked again and found sources labelling it very clearly as a "teen subculture"[32] and extensive analysis of its social characteristics [33][34][35]
• Y Queer culture -- This is the wrong name to use for this subculture. EN: it redirects to Sexuality and gender identity-based cultures
• Y Rave -- Hobby. EN: bordering on subculture. article mentions several cultural aspects. This book mentions that it was the first mass subculture and changed the way that subcultures were defined [36]
• N Redneck -- Type of person. EN: Stereotype, see Redneck (stereotype)
• Y Redskin (subculture) -- Is this another derogatory name for Native American. EN: Uh, no, this is a type of Skinhead
• Y Riot Grrrl EN: after searching for sources, I have to say that it qualifies with flying colors
• Y Rivethead EN: a member of the Industrial music subculture (see the Industrial entry above)
• Y Rockabilly EN: obvious musical subculture, Elvis Presley fans belong to this one, somewhat related to Teddy Boy and Greaser
• Y Rocker (subculture) -- Genre. uncontroversial EN: related to Greaser (subculture)
• Y Rude boy - uncontroversial EN: agree
• Y Role-playing gamers EN: not many sources, but good sources. I found this book from Gary Alan Fine. this other book is not a good source itself, but it explains how RPG playing has been examined on scholar works
• N Scene (subculture) / Scene (youth subculture) / Scene (community) / Scenesters / Scene Kid, slang term for a community, lacks good sources for being an actual subculture (for example a book written by a sociologist) and there is only enough material to make a dictionary definition, the articles were deleted by discussions here and here. See multiple AFD discussions nuking everything with "Scene" on the name.
• Y Scooterboy EN: article does not leave it totally clear, but probably qualifies as subculture
• N Skater EN: hobby, the links brings to no article that can qualify
• Y Skate punk -- Hobby. EN: agree
• Y Skinhead -- Subculture. EN: agree
• N Slacker EN: adjective for a type of people, article describes no shared social values
• N Sloane Ranger EN: term to identify a type of people
• ? Soulboy
• Y Steampunk EN: subgenre it's a subgenre of cyberpunk and a fashion, but it's also a subculture derived from Victorianism, a cover story in IEEE Spectrum [37], NYT [38], a doctor in social communication in Brasil made a paper in the magazine of its faculty pt:Famecos, [39], and her doctorate thesis names it as a subculture originating from Neo-victorianism [40]
• Y Straight edge -- Questionable. uncontroversial EN: lifestyle and scene, part of punk subcultures
• Y Suedehead (subculture) EN: part of Skinhead
• Y Swing Kids -- At least someone included a historical and non-American reference but it's still questionable whether it's a subculture or not. EN: questionable, but probably qualifies
• Y Swinging -- Questionable. Might be a hobby. EN: lifestyle. It's a lifestyle [41], but it also forms a sexual subculture inside sexual culture [42][43][44] (this last source details how swingers on Sidney are part of a broader Australian sex culture, but have not created a subculture of its own, pages 4, 6, 31). Google books has a good bunch of sources[45], but they are not readable online
• Y Teddy Boy EN: related to Rocker (subculture)
• Y Teenybopper EN: google books turns up a good bunch of sources [46]
• N Tiki culture EN: decoration style, article describes no social aspects
• Y Trekkie -- Fans of a genre are not a subculture. EN: agree, article describes no social aspects it's a fan subculture, found a sociology conference proceedings [47] and a book chapter authored by William Gibson[48] (he uses the Trekkies to explain social stuff about cyber-subcultures, and cites an author that talks about "subcultural capital"). Google books has a bunch of sources [49]. It's disputed, other sources describe it as a stereotype [50] or reject the subculture label because its members don't usually display its membership on public [51]
• Y Trojan skinhead (repeat with skinhead?) EN: one of the types of skinhead, it's now listed on the same line as skinhead
• Y Vampire lifestyle -- Hobby. EN: part of Otherkin, I moved it there
• N Veganism -- Questionable. EN: philosophy and lifestyle
• N Vegetarianism -- Health habit. EN: lacks the cultural aspects that a subculture has
• Y White power skinhead EN: listed with skinhead
• N Yakuza EN: Closely associated to the Bōsōzoku subculture. The Yakuza article mentions nothing, but I found a paper on a crime journal [52], a pair of books on crime making passing mentions [53][54] and a US Department of Justice report [55]. I found no pure anthropologic sources. The most complete book I could find is "Kamikaze Biker: Parody and Anomy in Affluent Japan" [56], which deals directly with Bosozoku as a subculture and talks of Yakuza as a criminal organization, with Bosozoku being a source of members for Yakuza. At most, Yakuza is part of the japanese criminal subculture (someone should look into this, make a summary, and expand the Yakuza article appropiatedly before adding this entry)
• N Young Fogey EN: dress style, lifestyle at most
• N Yuppie -- slang. EN: from article, a market segment, from sources, a lifestyle at most, google has no source, and google books have some sources that don't mention it as a subculture "yuppies were never a subculture on this sense, because a yuppie is not an identity that people took on for themselves and visibly wore on the face of social ostracism" [57]
• Y Zazou subculture EN: agree

Note: I see that many of these articles are inside the subculture category, despite not mentioning the word "subculture" on them. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Most of those are still unsourced. We cannot rely on personal opinions for this. --neon white talk 14:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I know, I know. But it's difficult to find sources that say explicitely "X is a subculture". Only a very few articles had such sources (I'll look them all again some day to try to source at least some :P ) --Enric Naval (talk) 16:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

That's true which is why i support merging a shortened list with the main article. --neon white talk 18:52, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

We also have to be careful about the rampant misuse of the term in the popular media. There a significant difference between what they often brand as 'subcultures' and an acedemic definition in sociological terms. --neon white talk 15:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

ADDITIONAL SUB

TIKI: These folks hang out in the few oringinal tiki bars that remain in bussiness through out the world. They listen to Exotica music. Often they build their own home tiki bars, so as to engage in tropical escapism. Collection of 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's original tiki memorabilia plays a part in the lifestyle. Craig Warn, Gallup, NM July,2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.134.36.140 (talk) 14:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at Tiki culture, it doesn't appear to have any shared social values, so it wouldn't qualify as subculture --Enric Naval (talk) 23:29, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion to merge two similar lists

I suggest that List of youth subcultures be merged into List of subcultures because the two lists are almost the same, with few exceptions.Spylab (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree. The problem with that list is that most subcultures are adopted or started by young people, so almost all subcultures can apply to both lists. "youth subcultures" is not a useful criteria.

Also, this list here is way more patrolled for bad entries :) --Enric Naval (talk) 21:11, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Strongly agree. Needless repetition, and one list is easier to patrol for nonsense. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Ken Gelder

There are numerous references throughout this list credited to Ken Gelder, for The Subcultures Reader, but most of the refs are incorrect. The book is a collection of 45 essays edited by Gelder and Sarah Thornton, but no information is given in the refs indicating which essays are being quoted. Simply crediting Gelder, with no further information, is bad form and probably violates WP policy, not to mention simply being poor writing. This needs to be sorted out. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Ouch. My fault. I'll repair it (it make take a few days) --Enric Naval (talk) 17:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

No worries. Thank you for your response. Cheers! ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 18:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Done. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:25, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

entries that appear on two places

I see that Trojan skinhead is listed both under "T" and under "S" (on the skinhead entry). Do we leave it like that, with all the skinhead types listed on two places? I can't think of a better solution --Enric Naval (talk) 18:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

bachelor subculture

Even if bachelor is a marital status, there is an actual subculture called "bachelor subculture". See the main reference:

• Howard P. Chudacoff (2000). Princeton University Press (ed.). The Age of the Bachelor. ISBN 0691070555, 9780691070551. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help) Pages: [0691070555, 9780691070551 5-7], 12-20, 29, 35, 43-44, 125, several other pages

and my argument:

well, I couldn't believe it when I saw it, but google scholar turns up tons of sources in sociology and history journals [58](most are pay-per-view so I'm not citing them), and many of them refer to this book written by Chudacoff

Please comment. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

• It looks like Chudacoff incorrectly uses the word subculture, when he really should have written lifestyle. I don't consider that source reliable in terms of defining bachelor as a subculture. Maybe his book has a lot of other good information, but he's wrong on that point. Wikipedia is not obliged to publish fringe views on all topics.Spylab (talk) 12:28, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

The author knows the difference between lifestyle and subculture, and makes the case of how a subculture emerged from the lifestyle. See how page 3 quotes a 1977 study that talks about a bachelor lifestyle, and later on page 6 he describes: "[first] a bachelor subculture and its acompanying identity as a social group emerged (...) bachelors, though still partial outcasts, were able to achieve some forms of recognition and even power [second] defines bachelorhood as a subculture of unattached (unmarried) male individuals within the larger culture of masculinity". Also see, for example: "These lifestyles, associations, and institutions reinforced the identity of bachelors as a subcultural group and differentiated bachelors from the larger society in more ways that just the bachelor's civil (i.e. marital) status"[59] "bachelors constituted a subcultural, rather than a countercultural, population"[60]

As for being a fringe view, I saw that "bachelor subculture" is used on multiple journal with the same meaning as Chudacoff. See that page 6 talks about "the closing decades of the nineteenth century and opening decades of the twentieth, when the modern bachelor subculture first flourished". You can see multiple references to a 19th century bachelor subculture on Journal of Social History [61], Journal of American History [62] American Historical Review [63] (the last hit talks about a chinese bachelor subculture).

See also that Google books gives 219 hits for "bachelor subculture"[64] and 332 for "bachelor lifestyle"[65], with the books for subculture being "serious" books about american history, sexuality, and crime; and all talking about the same concept of subculture as Chudacoff. From the books using lifestyle, I can only one or two talking about bachelorhood on that period of time, and there are almost no books written by sociology or history professors.

P.D.:This book published by Cambridge University Press argues that the bachelor subcultures should have been called instead "homosocial male subcultures" or "sport male subcultures". It also says that the idea of this subculture comes originally from George Chauncey (I think that the Chudacoff book also mentions this) --Enric Naval (talk) 16:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

neurodiversity

I believe something along the lines of neurodiversity needs to be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.171.0.149 (talk) 01:44, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Alter States of Concuissness

Should we add one for psychonauts, which is different from recreational drug users (psychonauts is spiritual and recreational is for pleasure)? (Also, recreational drug users is more specific than illegal drug users which does not include legal highs, tobacco, alcohol, energy drinks, as well as legalized drugs like cannabis, in some states.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Waterfiend (talk • contribs) 00:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

This List Favors Youth Subcultures, but Ignores Other Subcultures

Not that youth subcultures don't count. They certainly do. But the list should also include more non "pop-culture" or "youth culture" subcultures.

98.245.148.9 (talk) 19:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

None of the examples you added is sourced. The only one that seems appropriate is military brat. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:58, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

"Sagger"

SAGGER is most definitely a subculture Don't understand why spylab removes the edit (what is the point?) Le.Turlupin (talk) 13:37, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

No proof has been provided that sagging (fashion) is a subculture. That is the point.Spylab (talk) 11:08, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

PUA

Are Pickup artists or the Seduction community a "subculture"? I don't think so but the PUA article says "The term pickup artist is also associated with the seduction community, a heterosexual male subculture which strives to improve sexual and romantic abilities with women," followed by a citation needed tag. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 07:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC) PUA is definitely a subculture and should be added

Vaping

The vaping community is popping up everywhere, meeting fellow vapers all over the place, like the thousands of vapeshops, to vape and taste new eliquids. I vote for this being added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by B0ef (talk • contribs) 00:09, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Smoking isn't a culture, and vaping is just a different way to smoke. Gcoope15 (talk) 23:40, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Beard/mustache/facial hair subculture

I don't know enough about it to know how they identify, but certainly there's a better term than "beardos" for people who are into pogonotrophy. – kentyman (talk) 17:00, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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Definition of subculture

Subculture is defined as a subdivision within the dominant culture that has its own norms, values, and belief system (Riesman. (1950). The lonely crowd: a study of the changing American character, Yale University Press). If we are going to have a list of subcultures, it needs to be nested under location, for instance, "United States", where the dominant culture is white, middle/upper-class, males. That is the dominant culture, and there are massive studies/references to this. It amazes me that none of the following subcultures were listed: Indigenous Native Americans, American Immigrants, Black Americans, Mexican Americans, Female Americans, Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans, LGBTQ+ Americans, Drag Queen Americans, and the list goes on. All on this list have had positive impacts on the U.S. and made our country better. They belong under subcultures. This is my first entry in Wikipedia, so I don't know what that would look like, but it is worth considering. Gcoope15 (talk) 21:17, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

A subculture is defined as "an identifiable subgroup within a society or group of people, esp. one characterized by beliefs or interests at variance with those of the larger group; the distinctive ideas, practices, or way of life of such a subgroup." Does any of the mentioned groups have a way of life which distinguishes them from mainstream culture? Dimadick (talk) 20:04, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, they all do, and they are marginalized by the dominant group/culture. Gcoope15 (talk) 03:35, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Wrong "Pokémon"?

Hi, I stumbled across this Wikipedia page and was confused why the multimedia franchise Pokémon was listed. Was the intent referring to the subculture around the competitive scene for the Japanese video game/trading card game Pocket Monsters or the 2000s era Chilean subculture "Pokemón"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.114.136.85 (talk) 04:24, 20 April 2024 (UTC)