Talk:Queen's Christmas Message, 2004

All content has been merged with Queen's Christmas Message Andreww 09:08, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Copyright

Isn't the text Crown copyright? And shouldn't this go on wikisource if it isn't? ed g2s • talk 12:14, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't know the details. I doubt it, as the Crown copyright applies to Government documents, this is put out by the Queen in her personal capacity. But it is made freely available so there's no problem with using it. I'm not even sure a public speech attracts copyright protection - after all, the person making the speech wants their words to be publicised and reported. jguk 12:18, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Speechs are very much under copyright protection - just as any other works once they are set onto any media. Even if this were public domain or under a free license, then it would still not be appropriate for Wikipedia. Wikisource would be the place to put it. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not number 13 "Mere collections of public domain or other source material." --mav 16:52, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Which section of the Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 are you referring to? It's not as though we are storing a copy of the broadcasts here, just the text of the speech (which is worth keeping here in the short-term whilst it is newsworthy. Lob it over to Wikisource in a fortnight's time, if you want. jguk 19:23, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is an encycopedia, not a newspaper. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. If something is only of limited-term value, then it has no place here. A transcript of a broadcast is a clear derivative work of that broadcast and thus the original copyright still applies. And copyright is fixed once a work is created. Unless the Queen or her agent expressly placed the item in the public domain, then it is under copyright. --mav 02:06, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Boradcasting something does not release it from copyright. We can quote sections, but reproducing the whole thing is clear copyvio. ed g2s • talk 19:37, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Under which legislative provision? jguk 20:42, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The material should be left out until we can show it is free from copyright, not the other way around. ed g2s • talk 04:11, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Strange. Wikipedia can link to (allegedly) copyrighted material, but not host it??? The BBC makes no mention of permission for use, or any other copyright mention on the material.

ed_g2s, having looked at the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (and related SIs), I can't see anything in it about this. We can't re-enact the Message without permission (that's banned), nor can we rebroadcast it. But there's nothing in there about quoting the speech. It would be rather odd too, wouldn't it, if we couldn't quote a speech? Not allowed to repeat Martin Luther King's "I have a dream", or Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner"? No reference to Thatcher's "U-turn if you want to - the lady's not for turning"? Speeches are put out in the public domain. There they remain. jguk 10:13, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Speechs most certainly are not in the public domain unless their copyright has expired or the owner of the copyright placed it there. There is no exception for speechs in copyright. --mav

Under which specific legislative provision? jguk 19:22, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You talk about "I Have a Dream", perhaps you should read the article on it then get back to us. ed g2s • talk 19:29, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

To be honest with you, I didn't as it's not really relevant here. It's protection under UK law that we're discussing. jguk 20:33, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Compliment

Nice article. – Kaihsu 20:17, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)

Merging

I think this article should be renamed Queen's Christmas Message and be more general as a large chunk of this article is just about a Queen's Christmas Message in general. Also there is already an article Queens-Christmas-Speech though it needs to be copyedited and wikified so that could be merged into this one. Evil Monkey → Talk 20:43, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Leave it separate whilst it's still on the main page in the "In the news" template. Once it's left there, I'd agree with merging, and expanding on info for earlier years' speeches (there's also an Annus horibilis page that should be merged too). jguk 21:09, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea Andreww 22:01, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree Hypno 04:42, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Not to mention, it doesn't specify that it is Elizabeth II of the UK. Do Queen's of any other royal families give Christmas messages? -- Chuq 08:06, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think we have at least three pages to merge, Royal Christmas speech and Queen's Christmas Message are rather simmilar and, IMHO, they should be merged and one (and I don't know which) be a redirect to the other. The material on this page should be included as a sub-section (notable Christmas messages section?) and at leat some of the material from Annus horribilis also added. Andreww 10:48, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)