Talk:The Pale/Archive 1

Older comments

"Throughout the middle ages as the land gained in the Norman conquest gradually, so Gaelic Ireland expanded." As the land gradually what? Shrunk perhaps? --rmhermen

• Hm. Is this where the phrase, "Beyond the pale" comes from? -- April

Indeed yes! Mintguy 17:49 Sep 5, 2002 (PDT)

-) I think the 'beyond the Pale' phrase might be more generic than our own little one, lads, given that there were pales throughout Europe. http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorp.htm#pale

Aside from this little blip all roads really do lead to, em, Ireland ;-) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.1.172.138 (talk • contribs) 21:34, November 10, 2005.

The pale

I was always of the understanding that the pale was the white wall that seperaed the english from the Irish, and not the entire english land. Is that mot why Old Bawn is so called?--Irishpunktom\^talk 18:21, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Ah, here it is! I don't know how to link but one of you might like to throw this piece about the Pale by Ken Finlay onto the main site? http://www.chapters.eiretek.org/index.html (PS: This link goes to his homepage; the chapter concerned is titled simply 'Chapter XL The English Pale') Finlay has been writing a history of Dublin online for many years now. This new site of his isn't as good as the old one in terms of navigating it, but that's the same article on the Pale. I found it fascinating because I could walk across from UCD down Trimlestown avenue and see the very edge of the Pale, as designated in an act in 1488, thanks to the above article: 'By an Act of a Parliament held at Drogheda in 1488, the boundary of the Counties (Dublin, Meath, Kildare, and Uriel or Louth), constituting the Pale, is defined as extending "from Merrion inclusive to the waters of the Dodder, by the new ditch to Saggard, Rathcoole, Kilheel [Kilteel], Rathmore, and Ballymore [Eustace]; thence to the County of Kildare, into Ballycutlan, Harristown, and Naas, and so, thence to Clane, Kilboyne, and Kilcock, in such manner that the towns of Dalkey, Carrickbrennan [Monkstown], Newtown [Blackrock], Rochestown, Clonken, Smethistown, Ballyboteer [Booterstown], with Thorncastle [between Booterstown and Blackrock] and Bullock, were in Dublin Shire."'

PS: I changed Anglo-Norman to Hiberno-Norman for several reasons: 1) After centuries in Ireland they were Hiberno-Normans 2) Most Normans came directly from Wales, not England, and it is for this reason that historians such as Seán Duffy of Trinity refer to them as "Cambro-Normans" when writing about the actual invasions (1166; 1167; 1169) and of course Strongbow himself was Richard de Clare, earl of Pembroke in Wales. 3) When the Norman invasion happened the base of Norman power was not England but Normandy 5) The self-definition of the community of Norman descent as "Old English" first emerged in the 1580s as they tried to assert that they could remain Catholic but loyal to the English crown in the face of increasing New English control of power in the Pale's government (Nicholas Canny,'Reform and Restoration').—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.1.172.138 (talk • contribs) 21:34, November 10, 2005.

Suggested changes

The article needs more information on dates, in particular when the Pale was established, how long it lasted, and what happened to end it.--Srleffler 20:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

It could also use some information on modern use of "The Pale" to refer to the area around Dublin. I gather that this term is still used, colloquially.--Srleffler 22:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Propose move

I propose to move Pale to The Pale, to allow the current title to be used for an article on pales in general. I have started that article at Pale (jurisdiction) for now.--Srleffler 20:50, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. Andrewa 02:49, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Survey

• Support - needs definitive article as part of title. Djegan 21:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - absence of the definite article makes it sound like 1066 and all that ("The Irish Question at this time consisted of: (a) some Norman barons who lived in a Pail (near Dublin) ..."). Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:10, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support – Wikipedia includes the definite article in titles where it is part of a proper noun. In this instance this is always referred to as "The Pale", never "Pale", just as we refer to The Times not Times FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 01:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - it certainly sounds like the correct way to go. I have never heard anything else. ww2censor 02:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - as above. --Craig Stuntz 13:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - definite article is always used in referring to the Dublin one. zoney ♣ talk 14:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support per common sense. Evertype 09:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support as above. ~Inkington 14:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Discussion

The initial survey results have been so overwhelmingly positive that I have taken the liberty of adjusting the text and links in advance. Everything still works in the interim (thanks to redirects), except the link to Pale in this article, which will be active as a link to pales in general after the move.--Srleffler 04:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)