Talk:Mackem

Claes

The form claes meaning clothes is not unique to Sunderland it being also found in Ulster-Scots(and therefore probably scottish-Scots as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.70.197.55 (talk) 15:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Text

I'm aware of the text on:

http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/18/messages/864.html

...concerning the word 'Mackem' - I am the actual copyright holder of the text on the bulliten board where you found the information and it was me who posted there.

I only discovered 'Wikipedia' recently and decided if the Geordies could have a mention, so could the Mackems. If you look at the top of the page, it clearly states that this is the Discussion Forum section.

The original is on my own website at:

http://mysite.freeserve.com/kathmandu/safc/rivalry.htm

However, to avoid any problems, I will significantly change it and provide a link to both the bulliten board and my own website.

Ian (alias 'Beefy_SAFC')

Origins of the Word

I can't confirm this, but I was told by a Geordie that the word "Mackem" comes from the fact that Geordies think people from Sunderland are stupid, so "ye can mackem do this and ye can mackem do that" Emoscopes 15:31, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Nah, Geordies are the stupid ones - you couldn't even build a ship right. We Mak'ed 'em, you Tak'ed 'em. The fitting out of them was all we could trust you with.

I would more define a mackem as a subset of the greater group of geordie which covers people from the whole of the Tyne & Wear area (not just the county, the area including much of Co.Durham and southern Northumbria). Also though in modern terms with football being all thats important in this this has become distorted but in actual fact a geordie is not someone from Newcastle but someone from the coal mining areas of Co.Durham- due to the terms origin from the miners. And historically Sunderland has been part of Co.Durham. --Josquius 17:46, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

That would be incorrect. Mackems and Sunderland are completely seperate from Newcastle and Geordies regardless of what outsiders think. Mackems arent a subset of geordies, as there are far more mackems than there are geordies (compare populaces of Newcastle with Sunderland) and logic would point to the fact that it would, in fact, be completely the other way round if it werent to popular belief.

I first heard the term Makem in the mid senenties; my ex-husband was a shipwright and took offence as being called a Makem. he felt that it was an insult originating in Newcastle and derived from the wwearside accent where words like 'make' and 'take' become 'mak' and 'tak'. However I grew up in Sunderland and pronouce those words as mayk and tayk. 82.27.204.112 16:41, 24 December 2005 (UTC) Lee 24 December 2005

If you can prove this, please get in touch with the BBC and the Oxford English Dictionary, as linked in the article. Regards, ProhibitOnions 18:26, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey all, often words can't be proven to exist before a particular time, but in this case I am very sure indeed that my Grandad and indeed my whole family was using the word "Mackem" in its current meaning back in the 1960's. At some point in the future I might find some old 8mm film...

I moved to Sunderland in 1979 and the word Mackem was certainly in use then to distinguish the people of Sunderland from those of Newcastle:

Also would like to add I have many friends from Washington, nearly all of them Geordies who take offence at being called "Mackem", so I don't think Mackem can be applied wholesale to people from there. In terms of allegiance to once city and football team or the other (Newcastle = Geordies or Sunderland = Mackems), Washington's pretty much 50:50.

Oddly though, there's a significant number of people in Ashington in Northumberland who are Sunderland supporters, and would call themselves Mackems rather than Geordies if pushed on the subject. I wonder if there may be more Mackems in Ashington than Washington?

In my opinion, probably the best current definition of whether you are Mackem or Geordie is that you are either one or the other if you're from Tyneside, Wearside or the surrounding area (unless of course you're a sandancer...) and the differentiation is dependent on which football team you support or which city you prefer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.135.13.135 (talk) 12:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

The term comes from WWII, when ships were built on the Wear then sent to Newcastle for final fitting; from this the phrase "we mak 'em, and they tak 'em" was born.

The term was definitely around before WWII. A friend's grandfather was fond of telling a tale of when he went to Japan to help get their ship building back on track after the war. The Japanese guy he met spoke in a Geordie accent and made comment about the mackems. He had been living and working in the North East before the war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.165.151 (talk) 15:11, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Accent

I'm from the south of Sunderland and nobody says 'summik', everybody says 'summit'. So that just isn't true. You may as well state that most people are gay because the small sample you tried are gay, or everyone wets the bed because you did.

Spot on! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.100.159.212 (talk) 07:50, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Article need updating... The term dates at least to 1988

The article needs updating to take into account what was revealed on Monday January 9's Balderdash and Piffle that the term can be dated back to at least 1988 where it was used in the Sunderland Echo, there is also an example of the term tak 'em and mak 'em being used in 1973 to be considered. here is the OED's draft entry for Mackem GracieLizzie 16:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC) (A proud Mackem)

Yes, although this usage suggests the term was new, with no consensus as to spelling. I've taken out this newly added paragraph, as it is unencyclopedic and sounds like an argumentative talk page entry:

The actuality is that a 'mackem' was the man who would 'mack' (make) the ship's rivets, and the other person - mentioned here - the 'tackem'- was the feller who took the rivets to the riveter - in fact this was a skilful operation because, as the ship grew upwards, he would have to 'hoy' (throw) the red hot rivets throught the air for them to be equally skilfully caught. Riveting was common from the late 1870s to about 1940 when welding superceded this method of construction. Incidentally, 'Geordie' was not a name confined to Newcastle folk, on the contrary, it was a term derived from "Georges" who were the men who sailed the coal barges, and these, as mentioned elsewhere, sailed from both the Tyne and the Wear.(GHT - 29/12/05)

While it's possible this is true, it needs to be supported. After all, we're dealing with a possible folk etymology. The 1973 reference cited in the OED ("We still 'tak 'em and mak 'em and ye canna whack 'em'") gives no indication that Mackem (in any form) was in use to describe people at the time, although (as the OED indicates) it does lend support to the theory that that is the origin of the phrase. ProhibitOnions 17:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I was born in Sunderland in 1948 and lived there for 30 years. I worked in engineering and mining and lived in Hendon for several years. Never did I hear the term 'mackem' until 1994 when my son asked me about it after reading an article in the press. I very much doubt the term is anything motre than a journalistic invention from the 1980s. 79.67.112.81 (talk) 18:40, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. My dad is from Washington, and the first time he (and I) encountered the term was at the beginning of 1996, on a list of jokes on the NUFC website (I was there - it was the first time he ever surfed the web!). I'd reckon "Mackem" was invented just to give Sunderlanders a nickname, primarily for football purposes, as they previously didn't have one, whereas the Geordies (Scouse, Brummies) did; the plausible-sounding etymology was invented to give it a pedigree. I suspect all the other regional nicknames (Smoggies) came even later (the term "smog" is a 20th century coinage), or were possibly plucked from obscurity (Sanddancers). ProhibitOnions ^(T) 12:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I first heard the term in 1984, though it was from a Mancunian. I've no idea where he first encountered it, and didn't think to ask. --—Vom ^(talk) 04:05, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I first heard the term mackem in the 1960s as a child, and have never known people from Sunderland to be called anything else. Calling the football team the "black cats" however was something deliberately chosen by the team and its supporters in 1997 to try to get rid - unsuccessfully, of course - of the Mackem nickname which is seen by some as derogatory (and indeed is used in this sense by many Geordies). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.135.13.135 (talk) 12:59, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Category: Wikipedians in Tyne and Wear

Thought I'd mention this - there's a category, [[Category: Wikipedians in Tyne and Wear]], and so far I'm the only one in it. This can't be right (I live in Berlin as it is), so Geordies and Mackems, please add yourself to it. ProhibitOnions 23:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

W

How is the 'w' at the end of a sentence pronounced? --Mister Six 08:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Its not a mackem thing, its a geordie thing, but I can tell you that its pronounced 'wuh', as in a lower-case W. 'tuh, uh, vuh, WUH, ex, yuh, zuh' Thats how I did as a child anyway. Very hard to recall it now I say the alphabet properly but I hope you understand. Mackems do not say this.. its more 'our so-and-so' nor wor.

The previous poster is correct. In Newcastle they will say "Wor Billy" while in Sunderland we say "Our Billy". Personally I have always imagined this is a remnant of ancient Scots, dating from the times when Newcastle was considered the border with Scotland. This is of course only my guess, but there are certain mannerisms in Geordie speech which are more similar to Scottish than English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.100.159.212 (talk) 07:53, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "oo" sound, and Film

The main article is incorrect in saying that:

School - (Geordie: rhymes with Cool and Rule), (Mackem: split into two syllables, and a short e sound (as in wet) is added after the oo sound to :emphasise the L, i.e. skoo-ell). Note: This is also the case for words ending in -eul such as a 'Cruel' and 'fuel' which are turned into croo-:el and few-el, although 'vowel-adding' in this way is also a component of Geordie ('school' becoming 'sch-yew-l', &c). This 'extra syllable' :occurs in other words spoken in a Mackem dialect, ie. Film becomes "fill-im".

The mackem versions are actually pronounced "scew-el", "crew-el", "rew-el" etc.

It is not only Mackems who pronounce "Film" as "fill-im". This is a north-east wide pronunciation, i.e. it is the same in Northumberland, Tyne + Wear, and Durham

Geordies also use this

I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to make here? 'crew-el' to me looks like it would be pronounced exactly like 'croo-el'...? --Oolong 15:46, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Wearside

I've added an article for 'Wearside' if anyone fancies a gander, it's canny basic right now so if people can help me to expand it. Gazh 09:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Added Famous Mackems List

Help me build it. Gazh 12:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I have changed Bobby Thompson entry to correctly state he is from sunderland - penshaw is part of sunderland and is three miles away from houghton-le-spring unlike what was stated in article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.140.178 (talk) 15:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

   Could it not be considered that Joseph Swan is a famous mackem since he is from sunderland and is the inventor of the electric light bulb.

Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of October 11, 2007, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: See the peer review for more info.

2. Factually accurate?: Ref 1 needs more information. "The term could also be a reference..." is still unreferenced.

3. Broad in coverage?: Doesn't even talk that much about the rivalry between them and the Geordies. That needs a whole section of info.

4. Neutral point of view?: Yes.

5. Article stability? Yes.

6. Images?: Clarify why the image of the bridge is important in the caption, explain what it has to Mackems.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be renominated. If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a Good article reassessment. Thank you for your work so far. — T Rex | talk 03:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Heather Mills

Hello I would like to address a concern here, I have noticed that Heather Mills is in the list of famous mackems. Now we all know she's from Washington, however on one of her ranting GMTV interviews she claimed she was a geordie, so should we shift this from the page or not? The sunder king 15:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The lines are vague up there anyway, if she wants to claim Geordie she should probably be removed from the list. Gazh (talk) 07:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Dialect words list

I'd been adding bits and pieces for a while now and was wondering if it needs organising a bit better? Maybe in format where the word comes first then the explanation comes after, and maybe in alphabetical order? I'm not entirely sure how to do this, but i will continue to add things as they come into mind, cheers. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 12:50, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Dolling Off

This is a common term used in horse racing where a fence is damaged or, due to the low position of the sun for example, otherwise considered too hazardous to jump and is instead "dolled off" so that the jockeys do not have to attempt it. Easy to see how this could be applied to school or any other activity one was keen to avoid. Keristrasza (talk) 01:30, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Mackem debate and unaspirated "h"s

A southerner who came to Sunderland in 1970 to study, I never heard the term Mackem until I started work in Newcastle in 1973 when the Geordies would refer to people from Sunderland as "the mackems and tackems". It was many years later I recall when "Mackems" suddenly came into popular currency. I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned (as far as I can see) that Mackems, like Cockneys, drop their "h"s whereas Geordies normally don't. 84.13.79.1 (talk) 15:45, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

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Pronunciation differences and dialect words: resemblance to the Netherlandish ("Dutch") language

• Wee or whee for who: the Netherlandish "wie" also means who and is pronounced more or less the same.
• Wuh or wa for we: the Netherlandisch "we" also means we and is pronounced roughly the same; Netherlandish "we" is the unstressed form of "wij", a word originally pronounced like the English we. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amand Keultjes (talk • contribs) 10:09, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Great Vowel Shift

Isn't the Great Vowel Shift responsible for the mack and tack pronunciations of "make" and "take"? After all, a couple of centuries ago those were pronounced /ˈmaːk(ə)/ and /ˈtaːk(ə)/ (I'm not sure about the final schwa) in English. They could've been shortened to /ˈmak/ and /ˈtak/ and fail to shift to /eɪ/ or something similar because of their shortness. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 15:05, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Mackem

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Mackem's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Beal":

• From Smoggie: Beal, Joan C. (2012). Urban North-eastern English: Tyneside to Teesside (Dialects of English). Edinburgh University Press.
• From Yorkshire dialect: Joan C. Beal, An Introduction to Regional Englishes, Edinburgh University Press, 2010, pp. 95–99

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 20:49, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Geordie

I note that throughout this article there is unquestioning acceptance of the term Geordie being specific to Newcastle. As far as my research can tell me the origins of the term have many theories but none of them proven. They are just theories. How and when the natives of Newcastle 'hijacked' the word I don't know but I think it started as some kind of imitation of the Cockney idea of a name being restricted on a very small area. In fact, the very first written examples of the word Geordie were referring to the miners of Northumberland and Durham. To me, Geordie is an umbrella term for all of these dialects and accents Mackem, Newcastle and Pitmatic being just three variations. Blotski (talk) 13:25, 10 January 2024 (UTC)