Talk:Shrine of the Three Kings

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What are "unknown facts"? Are they anything like "known unknowns"? Hotlorp

For my part, I'm just mystified by this article. The first sentence should declare what the article is about (I had to use "what links here" to get a clue - it's a reliquary, right?), and some explanation of the English-only reader needs to see the long quotes in foreign languages that he/she won't understand anyway... Stan 03:41 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)

Visiting Cologne and trying to find out some info on the shrine of the magi... could someone please translate this? Maria Hale. 21.11.04

See also: in other languages, Deutsch, and see also: www.google.com, Language Tools ... could someone please translate this unknown facts?

Dietmar Scherm 23:24, 24.11.2004

I'm adding a cleanup notice to this article, it currently needs quite a bit of work. I don't know enough on the topic to do it justice, all I know is that the remains were first discovered by Helena of Constantinople. Rje 01:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've translated the german quote of 1864 - trying to stick closely to both words and ductus of the original, but I'm not educated in 19th century english, so might not have made a match of contemporary english at all. Unclarities in the original are mentioned expressis verbis: "rotten or moulded" could be either or both; a generic term was used for "the crosier (bishop's crook)", so I assume the coin does not allow distinction --Purodha Blissenbach 2005 July 6 11:23 (UTC)

Provable facts about the clothing in the Cologne cathedral treasure room, taken out of the shrine of the Three Kings: Dr. Walter Schulten is writing: Eyewitness bishop Baudri had seen and is writing in 1881, a piece of material for the treasure-vault was taken out of the shrine of the Three Kings.
"1881 schrieb der Kölner Weihbischof Baudri, der 1864 ebenfalls bei der Umbettung der Gebeine zugegegen war (Anmerkung von Dietmar: Sein Name steht unter dutzend anderen auch im Eröffnungsprotokoll des Schreines von 1864), daß man ein Stück eines alten byzantinischen Gewebes von Byssus (Bezeichnung für feines Leinen- oder Seidengewebe der Antike) für die Schatzkammer des Domes entnommen habe. Und: Kenner führen die Zeit dieser byzantinischen Textur in die früheste Periode der byzantinischen Herrschaft zurück. (Anmerkung von Dietmar: Insbesondere durch Franz Bock, sein Name steht auch im Protokoll.) Tatsächlich ist inzwischen der Nachweis gelungen, daß die Stoffe, in die die Gebeine gewickelt wurden, mit Sicherheit im 2. Jahrhundert, möglicherweise sogar noch früher, in Syrien gewebt worden sind.", in: Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, Seite 17, Autor: Schulten, Pater Dr. Walter, Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff, Aus Seide im 2. Jahrhundert gewebt, Seiten 14-19. Pater Dr. Walter Schulten hatte ich 1992 noch persönlich im Kloster Knechtsteden gesprochen, und er sagte mir, die Stelle findet sich in der Bibliographie des Baudri über den Kölner Erzbischof und Kardinal Johannes von Geissel. 1881 hatte er nur folgendes Buch geschrieben: Baudri, Johann Anton Friedrich, Der Erzbischof von Köln Johannes Cardinal von Geissel und seine Zeit, 1881.
Other very important documents about the little pieces of clothes:
2. Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, pages 20 - 23, Zieleskiewicz, Paula Maria: Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff, Fadenzählen für die Forschung
3. Bayer-Berichte Heft 47, Leverkusen 1982, pages 24 -29, Wagner, Dr. Hans, Der Kölner Dreikönigenstoff: Bayer - Labor wies antiken Purpur nach
4. Organ für christliche Kunst 14, Köln 1864, pages 235 - 237, Bock, Dr. Franz, Die Eröffnung des Schreines der heiligen Dreikönige am 20. Juli 1864
5. Bock, Dr. Franz, Die textilen Byssus Reliquien, Aachen 1895, pages 5 -7
Eyewitness-report of Dr. Franz Bock: "It was found many pieces of white-yellow clothing ...with small square sample (sign), firmly connected with the bones. " You can see three different parts of this clothing in: Photo No. 169 in: http://www.deca-forum.net/e_index.htm ,image database, simple search, write above in text: dreikoenigenschrein, search, next page No. 9. For investigations, little antiquity purple was taken from the visible threads by the material piece on the top right.

Dietmar 15:54 August 27, 2005 ---Translation is permitted

More history?

I am a little surprised that this article begins with events in the 1100s without explaining where these relics came from, why they are presumed to be the bones of the magi, etc. Perhaps there is enough material somewhere to create an article on "Relics of the three wise men," but I doubt it, so this seems like a good place to put at least a little more historical context. --Dmz5 22:56, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I know that there has to be history about their discovery, if not. I don't have time now to look, but the story that should be mentioned (if apocryphal or real I do not know for certain) is that they were a gift to Queen Helen (mother of Constantine) given by Armenian Christians to her upon her archeological crew's believed discovery of parts of the True cross of Jesus on Holy Cross day. She brings them to Milan. Now whether or not she was given the "real" bones of three magi or not I do not know how it could be provable. deaghaidh 64.20.189.19 13:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Dating the remains - a question

How in 1864 the experts dated the remains to about 2000 years old? MathKnight 13:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Eyewitness-report by Franz Bock: Bei den heiligen drei Königen "waren einzelne Knochen von einem äusserst feinen Gewebe in weisslich gelblicher Farbe massenhaft umwickelt und verhüllt. Auch fanden sich grössere und kleinere Gebeine von solchen Stoffen umwickelt, die, kleinere Stäbchen formierend, so unendlich häufig übereinander gerollt waren, dass sie fast ein festes Konglomerat bildeten und mit Mühe, bei der grossen Zartheit der Gewebe, kaum voneinander geblättert werden konnten. ... Wir waren überrascht, bei näherer Untersuchung dieser altorientalischen Byssusgewebe die fernere Wahrnehmung zu machen, dass in dieser Menge von Byssusresten ein kleines quadriertes Muster, immer wiederkehrend, deutlich zu erkennen war. ... Es wurde bestimmt, dass diese seltenen textilen Ueberreste in dem Archiv des Kölner Doms, unter Glastafeln verschlossen, sorgfältig aufbewahrt werden sollten." (Bock, Franz, Die textilen Byssus-Reliquien, Aachen 1895, pages 5-7; vorhanden in: Erzbischöfliche Diözesanbibliothek Köln); Franz Bock: "In the shrine of the Three Kungs at Cologne Cathedralmany individual bones were wrapped again and again with an extremely fine textile fabric, whitish-yellow in color and mass veiled. ... Upon closer examination we were suprised to see clearly a lot of little squares in the very old tissue. ... We determined that these rare textile remains should be carefully preserved in the archives of the Cologne Cathedral, closed under glass panels." See also photo no. 169, great fragment No.1 (left), in: Image database DECA - Digital European Cathedral Archives. Requires some navigation: go to "image database", click "simple search", type "dreikoenigenschrein" in "text" field, and click "search". In the beginning of 1981, Professor Daniel de Jonghe (Royal Museums of art and history in Brussels), an internationally recognized expert in the field of ancient materials, was contacted by the Archbishop Diözesan-Museum. In his opinion and after the technological features the cologne-clothes belongs in the group of "Late silk Blöckchendamaste", which was woven in the period from 2.bis 4th Century in the Middle East. This grouping of silk Blöckchendamaste also concurs with the oldest substances, the findings from clothes in a tower in the Syrian town Palmyra which was destroyed in 272 AD. This little grave-tower is called tower of Elahbel. See also [1], [2] and a video and most important [3]. These towers are built between 50 BC and 200 AD (not 272 AD!). Based on the research results of Pfister, the Silk fabric from the neighbour tower Iamblik (Tombeau Jamblique) (82 AD) also concurs with the Cologne clothes full directly. [4] Therefore this type of cloth was already known in 1. century. In particular there are similarity to the thread count, the yarn twist, the direction by warp and weft, the Köpergrat of counter-binding and Blöckchenmuster. The weft yarn is made of wool and, with real dyed purple. Such substances were only made in imperial workshops. Also gold was found - a silk thread wrapped with gold foil. At the end of 1981 it was investigated by Royal Patrimoine Artistique Institute in Brussels. The institute was determined that this gold is pure gold with only minor or admixture of silver and copper under 1 percent. Such gold was used at the time of Christ. Of significance to the dating of the tissue was also the knowing how to dye the wool with this fragment No.2 dyed (quite right, see photo above). This question about dark red colour - of whether it is indeed ancient purple, could accurately answered with help of scientists by "Bayer Leverkusen". The antiquity purple color of antiquity was removed from the secretions of thousands of purple snails in Sidon and Tire. About 1.4 grams of pure color additive to win, had about 10,000 snails lost their lives. No wonder that purple was in the finest ancient and valuable red-purple dye. The chemical constitution of ancient Purpurs- 6.6 `Dibromindigo - was elucidated in 1909. It belongs to the application class of "Küppenfarbstoffe". A well-known color manufacturers such as Bayer Ag has the necessary experimental requirements and experience to carry out qualitative dye analysis. Of the surveyed fragment No.2 of the Three King's clothes substance were only about 3 cm². Consequently, it was possible to analyze only very little fragments which were removed while respecting the nature of the substance No.2. This investigation offered - without doubt - the evidence for dark purple rope of Cologne Three King's clothes that it is ancient purple substance. -- Dietmar 15:46, 10 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.59.225.196 (talk)

Wartime storage?

Something must have been done during WWII to protect the shrine from damage. Cologne was very heavily bombed and, according to German Wiki, the cathedral's vaulted ceilings (Deckengewölbe) collapsed. Perhaps it was stored in a vault somewhere? Sca (talk) 15:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

It was stored in castle Weißenstein. Book by Niklas Möring, 2011: Möring tells the adventurous story about transportation of Shrine of the Three Kings and altar of the patron saints. In July 1942, the Metropolitan Chapter decided the valuable pieces to store nearby Bamberg (Pommersfelden). Together with Dreikönigsaltar (faces mapped likelife) and 60 paintings from the Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, the precious cargo was brought to safety in the basement of the baroque castle "White Stone". (Im Juli 1942 beschloss das Metropolitankapitel, die wertvollen Stücke in die Nähe von Bamberg (Pommersfelden) zu schaffen. Gemeinsam mit dem Altar der Stadtpatrone und 60 Gemälden des Wallraf-Richartz-Museums wurde die wertvolle Fracht im Keller des Barockschlosses Weißenstein in Sicherheit gebracht.) -- Dietmar 11:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.159.25.137 (talk)

Free gift of the Magi gold frankincense and myrrh

My sister and my mother-in-law I have cancer breast and Ch Home I understand from my husband much research was done on call frankincense and murder. We've got Nguyen Wyles we wish the Lord to bless them and I'm going to explain to them how this works I need any suggestions also thank you Diane King  Jerseygirlgirl4950 (talk) 15:38, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Three gifts of the magi gold frankincense and myrrh

I had to rewrite this it came out incorrect my sister has breast cancer my mother-in-law has colon cancer I understand that the three oils gold frankincense and myrrh which I have purchased and hope that I can tell them how to use this and asked the good Lord to bless the oil's to help get rid of the cancer please add any suggestions that you may have. Diane King Jerseygirlgirl4950 (talk) 15:44, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

David Lowenthal's Claims

In both "The Heritage Crusade and the Spoils of History", cited here, and in his 'History & Memory' article "Fabricating Heritage", David Lowenthal claims that not only the story of the Magi's relics having been brought from Constantinople to Milan, but even their pillaging *from Milan* and movement to Cologne, were all simply fictions invented by Rainald of Dassel himself, who is normally supposed to have been the one who had them brought to Cologne, where he resided, in the first place, after they were gifted to him by Frederick Barbarossa. He also claims that neither of the two stories have any source earlier than Rainald, and that all later sources draw merely from him.

All of this he asserts unflinchingly; And moreover, with essentially no evidence cited. This is made stranger in that I have been unable to find a single source that makes the same claim, or, as of now, a single source that addresses his making the claim, save for a passing remark regarding it from the website of the 'Center for Inquiry' in America, a small atheist organisation, for the purposes of dismissing the relics, apparently haven found Lowenthal's claim by accident and knowing little on the subject.

Given that this page cites one of the works where he makes the claim, it seems to be an appropriate place to inquire as to, again, whether this claim can be found anywhere else at all, or if it has even been addressed substantially anywhere at all. Zusty001 (talk) 00:27, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Medieval Art

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