Talk:Thirty Years' War

Military history assessment

Is it supposed to be BL-class? I'm pretty sure the article isn't a list. Is it B or C or BL? Thanks. FredModulars (talk) 11:47, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• B, currently undergoing A class assessment. Now corrected, thanks :) Robinvp11 (talk) 16:36, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

• • TiltuM The recent discussion has improved this article in several respects but can you please hold off on other edits as this article is undergoing an A class review and needs to be stable. If you have other comments, you're welcome to add them to the assessment discussion. Robinvp11 (talk) 09:09, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Death toll could possibly be higher

Some sources show that the death toll could possibly be as high as 12 Million. TaipingRebellion1850 (talk) 02:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

• I've taken a wide range of Sources and selected the most likely range. Figures above 8 million are generally dismissed as unrealistic (for example, I've seen suggestions of up to 80 million deaths for the Taiping Rebellion but very people support such estimates). Robinvp11 (talk) 10:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Nowhere does it say 12 Million is unrealistic. It's possible figure sinc the census dropped so low. Just like the Spanish flu death toll, ranges from 17 Million to 100 million deaths. The gap from 17 to 100 is huge, but it is still stated anyway. TaipingRebellion1850 (talk) 19:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

• I can't comment on the Spanish Flu article except to point out the key Source provided in the Lede states "simulations of total number of deaths being greater than 25 million are not realistic", while the other two suggest a range of 25-50 million so I don't think that's a particularly useful example.

• Death rates are discussed in detail in the body of the article; I suggest you read that, plus the Sources provided.

• If you still want to challenge them, this article is currently undergoing an A Class review and you should argue the point there, not here. Robinvp11 (talk) 10:28, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

May I suggest the split-screen photo for the infobox (if someone can do it)

The split-screen photos that you see for the infoboxes of the Napoleonic Wars, American Revolution, WWI and WWII, basically. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 07:59, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Second half should begin with the Swedish Intervention

“The war had now entered its most destructive phase and both sides fielded around 100,000 men each. The 1632 campaign marked the zenith of Swedish power in Germany and was the most intensive of the entire war as Gustavus sought to consolidate his empire... the greater scope of the conflict, but also its increasingly regional character, dictated by the Empire’s physical and political geography. The logistical difficulties of concentrating large numbers of troops in one place combined with the dependency of Sweden and the emperor on German allies to scatter the rival armies across the Empire, establishing the strategic pattern that persisted, with some important modifications, until 1648. At this point, each side fielded several large armies simultaneously, contributing to the frequency of major battles. As overall troop strength declined after 1635, the number of field armies fell, initially to two apiece, and then one each by 1647.”

This from Europes Tragedy by Geofrey Parker, widely considered the definitive text on the 30 years war by a modern historian. From this, clearly by 1632 the war cannot be primarily described as a civil war as the intro to the wiki page does. Nor can the point of escalation be marked at 1635, as this is when troop strength began to decline. The point of most serious escalation was the Swedish Intervention, the period between the Swedish and French interventions was the most destructive.

Dividing the war into sections should reflect this. Either the second half should begin with the Swedish Intervention or the war should be split into three sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7C:3077:9F00:D6D:FE3B:407F:5BB (talk) 13:09, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments.

I'm not sure Parker's book (first published in 1984) should necessarily be considered the "definitive text on the 30 Years War", particularly as much of it is devoted to the wider European context, rather than the fighting inside the Empire. Wilson's 2009 work is perhaps a better shout but that's an opinion;

It is possible to divide the war into various sections and how we do that is a matter of perspective. Phase I is split into separate sections on Bohemia and the Palatinate, followed by Danish and Swedish intervention, which is consistent with other studies of the conflict.

Based on research for this article, most authors suggest the 1635 Peace of Prague as the point when the civil war ended, plus it was French intervention and financial support for Sweden which kept the war going until 1648. That is the basis for dividing it into pre and post 1635.

I believe the current structure is sufficiently robust and logical as it stands. Robinvp11 (talk) 18:28, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Recent Edits to Lede

@DayTime99: I do not understand, nor have you explained, the precise issue that concerns you. The Lede is a summary of the article and should tie into the Infobox so you should not be making changes to it in isolation.

The section on the "Human and financial cost of the war" clearly states that military casualties were a relatively small percentage of the deaths incurred and the vast majority were the result of disease or starvation directly attributable to the war.

The History.com article says; It remains one of the longest and most brutal wars in human history, with more than 8 million casualties resulting from military battles as well as from the famine and disease caused by the conflict.

Please explain how that differs from the wording of the article ie it was directly responsible for the death of an estimated 4.5 to 8 million soldiers and civilians....Robinvp11 (talk) 12:19, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

The issue is simple. Disease is not a "direct cause" of death during a war. It's an indirect cause. The only time deaths from disease would be directly caused by war would happen by biological warfare, which didn't occur in the 30 Years War. Furthermore, the problem with the German population decline estimate being in that part of the lead is that it implies those regions were directly wiped out by violence in the war. However, much of that population decline is attributable to people fleeing the region as refugees. To give a similar example, in the modern day Russia-Ukraine War many Ukrainians have fled the country as refugees - while Ukraine's population has dropped, that doesn't mean they were annihilated by violence. I'm fine with the German population decline estimate being somewhere in the article, but not directly after the death toll numbers. DayTime99 (talk) 05:51, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm spending far more energy on this than it deserves but for the sake of completeness let me summarise, because the next stage will be mediation.

Invariably, the first question that comes up in relation to the Thirty Years War is that of total casualties arising from it; in German, and to a lesser extent Czech history, it is still referred to as "The Great War" and a disaster unparalleled until 1945. As a result, the figure in the Lead has been extensively discussed when rewriting this article (most people wanted it higher, as is apparent from previous entries on the Talkpage), and during the A class review.

Without reference to that prior discussion or apparently reading the article before jumping in, you made a substantive alteration. Okay, Wikipedia is a collaborative forum ("collaborative" being the operative word) but the reference you provided did not support that change.

I'm still struggling to understand the substantive difference between "directly attributable" (the original wording) and "resulting from" (per your Source), nor did you explain it as requested.

The distinction you make between 'direct' and 'indirect' is not one made by Wikipedia (eg articles on WWI and WWII), any historian writing about this war, nor indeed by the History.com source you provided, probably because it makes no sense. Nevertheless, for the sake of a quiet life I removed the word "direct".

You have now moved the argument onto whether "population decline" (the exact and carefully chosen wording) is the same as "directly wiped out by violence". They're quite clearly not while a quick Google search shows numerous articles (including the WSJ and BBC) that specifically link "population decline in Ukraine" to the ongoing war.

If you want to continue this discussion, you should do so formally using the Wikipedia mediation process. Otherwise, move on. Robinvp11 (talk) 18:15, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I won't change the current wording, but I still insist the "German population declines" estimate is inappropriately placed in the same sentence as deaths during the war, and is thus misleading due to reasons already explained. DayTime99 (talk) 08:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestion of where it can be placed then? "Population declines" seems pretty clear to me that it does not just mean deaths, since obviously a population can decline in other ways. It makes sense within that sentence as it is discussing the toll the war took. TylerBurden (talk) 18:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think this point needs further work; it's Sourced and has been extensively discussed already. Robinvp11 (talk) 19:04, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

The image in the infobox

Would other people like to see a collage of multiple images in the infobox like on pages on other big wars? World War II, World War I and the Seven Years'War are examples. I think it would do more justice to this massive conflict. It would look something like this:DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 15:57, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

• 
  Example 1. Clockwise: The Surrender of Breda (1625), The Death of Gustavus Adolphus at the Battle of Lützen (1632), The Battle of Rocroi (1643) and the Battle of Colberger Heide (1644)
• 
  Example 2. Clockwise: The Defenestration of Prague (1618), The Death of Gustavus Adolphus at the Battle of Lützen (1632), Dutch ships gather before the Battle of the Downs (1639) and The Battle of Rocroi (1643)

Yes, I think this might be a good idea. But I don't understand why you did not include the picture that is already there in either one of your proposed collages? Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 16:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that the current image looks particularly good, but these collages are by no means final. If enough people want another image included that can be done DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 17:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Overall good idea! Instead of Breda I would prefer the Defenestration or one of Peter Snayers paintings of the Battle of White Mountain to focus on the outbreak of the war. I agree with the choice of Lützen and Rocroi (you could change Gustavus Adolphus' death at Lützen with him at Breitenfeld 1631 but Rocroi is set). Regarding sea battles, I would rather go with the Downs over Colberger Heide. The Torstenson War was rather a sideshow in contrast to the Spanish-Dutch conflict.--Palastwache (talk) 20:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I support the multiple image idea. I think the first selection you chose looks good. DayTime99 (talk) 21:12, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Here is an example with just contemporary paintings including White Mountain and Breitenfeld. Should I include any of these over the other paintings? Personally I like example 2 the most.DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 09:22, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• 
  Example 3. Clockwise: The Battle of White Mountain (1620), Frederick Henry and Ernest Casimir at the Siege of 's-Hertogenbosch (1629), Gustavus Adolphus at the Battle of Breitenfeld (1631) and the Battle of Honnecourt (1642)

I am fine with example 2 also. warshy ^(¥¥) 17:07, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I am also assuming that the descriptions would have wikilinks added to the pages covering these events? warshy ^(¥¥) 17:09, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree as well with the collage, easier to represent the conflict with a few different images as opposed to a single one, works well on other war articles like the ones mentioned. TylerBurden (talk) 18:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Congratulations. Kudos! Nice job, very nicely done! Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 18:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Article states Alte Veste to be the largest battle?

Though the largest engagement of this war was the Siege of Nuremberg 1632. Over 95,000 combatants, counting both sides. TaipingRebellion1850 (talk) 00:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Downplaying of religion

I can’t help but notice that since edits by User:Robinvp11 were made in 2020, the role and importance of religion in this conflict has been downplayed and obfuscated, at least in the lead section. This POV seems to be at odds with every historical analysis on the subject. The only reason I noticed it was because Wikipedia’s entry is so vastly different than every other expert source on the subject. Viriditas (talk) 00:00, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Be specific: which "expert source" (the article lists those used, but I may have missed a few), and how (in your opinion) do they differ from the summary provided in the Lead?

Until the 20th century, historians generally viewed the war as a continuation of the religious struggle initiated by the 16th-century Reformation within the Holy Roman Empire. The 1555 Peace of Augsburg attempted to resolve this by dividing the Empire into Lutheran and Catholic states, but over the next 50 years the expansion of Protestantism beyond these boundaries destabilised the settlement. While most modern commentators accept differences over religion and Imperial authority were important factors in causing the war, they argue its scope and extent were driven by the contest for European dominance between Habsburg-ruled Spain and Austria, and the French House of Bourbon. Robinvp11 (talk) 14:15, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Prior to your edits, the lead said directly and quite explicitly that it was a "war between the Protestant and Catholic states" that was "instigated by the election of Ferdinand II as Holy Roman Emperor, a staunch Catholic who tried to impose religious uniformity on his domains. In response, the Protestant states of northern Germany formed the Protestant Union to defend their interests." Now, after your edits, the reader is left wondering if this had anything to do with religion at all. I find that very odd. Viriditas (talk) 21:12, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

That is exactly what the reader needs to ask himself. Modern historians mostly argue that religion wasn't the main driver of the war and that its importance has been historically overrated DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 21:33, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

That’s what confuses me. You cite a single source for this assertion from like almost a century ago. If you can back this assertion up with something a bit more current, I would love to take a look. Viriditas (talk) 08:28, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

(a) This is what the Lead says: differences over religion and Imperial authority were important factors in causing the war, [but]] its scope and extent were driven by the contest for European dominance between Habsburg-ruled Spain and Austria, and the French House of Bourbon. The role of religion in starting the war is detailed extensively in the Background.

However, even before formally entering the war in 1635, Catholic France was the primary financial support for Protestant opponents of the Habsburgs, including the Dutch, the Swedes and the Heilbronn League. Protestant Saxony and Brandenburg supported the Habsburgs prior to 1628 and post 1635, the Pope at various times opposed them, Protestants and Catholics fought on both sides, Spanish participation was an offshoot of their war with the Dutch, with fighting taking place in areas outside Germany, including France, Northern Italy, the Spanish Netherlands etc etc. That makes it very much more complex than an internal German religious war, which is what the Lead says.

I think you are conflating two different things, ie what sparked the war in Germany (differences over religion and Imperial authority), and why it went on so long (the Habsburg/Bourbon rivalry). These different factors are set out clearly in the body of the article; if it needs clarifying, suggest some wording;

(b)You cite a single source for this assertion from like almost a century ago. I'm having trouble seeing where you get this from; the Lead refers to "modern commentators" (which certainly began with Wedgwood, but doesn't name her or claim she's the only one), while the Source provided in the Lead for this comes from 1992.

There is an extremely extensive list of Sources attached - pick a couple. Wilson and Parker are probably the most accessible. Robinvp11 (talk) 13:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Belligerents

How come England is not mentioned in the list? I was brought to this article by another that mentioned thier involvement, yet at a quick glance i do not know what side they were on. 2603:7080:9207:AD00:346A:3353:CAD2:78E4 (talk) 18:48, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The nation's involvement doesn't seem notable enough to be listed as a belligerent. TylerBurden (talk) 23:50, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The five year Anglo-Spanish War was essentially the "western front" of this war for a period. England raised upwards of 60,000 troops that supported the various Protestant causes (having learned more about all this, compared to my initial post of wondering what side they would even be on), with manpower and clout helping dramatically in the Palatinate campaign. I am not sure if this includes the 10,000 Scottish contingent that was also raised.

So, could you elaborate on why England and Scotland are not notable enough for a mention in the infobox? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:9207:AD00:11C7:D858:80EF:9A0A (talk) 00:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

English soldiers fighting for other countries armies is quite different from England itself entering the war, in which case there would be a lot more to stand on in terms of being an actual belligerent. A modern example would be people going to fight for the Ukrainian army in the Russian invasion doesn't mean their country is a belligerent. TylerBurden (talk) 00:43, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

And, the Anglo-Spanish War part of the overall war?

I would also note that there are lots of articles that include "supported by" sections within the belligerent part of the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:9207:AD00:11C7:D858:80EF:9A0A (talk) 01:48, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Tbf, if we do consider the 1621-1648 part of the Eighty Years' War as a part of the Thirty Years' War there could be an argument for the Anglo-Spanish War as well. The Anglo-Spanish War is an intervention in the Eighty Years War after all.

Lastly, we should consider removing the image at the bottom of the page which shows the involvement of the different countries if England isn't a belligerent DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 13:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

"Belligerent" is a closely defined legal phrase; non-belligerents (for example) don't sign peace treaties, and neither England or Scotland were signatories to Westphalia in 1648. Since England's non-participation in the Thirty Years War caused massive tension between Parliament and the Crown, and was one of the issues that led to the outbreak of civil war in 1642, it's also counter-factual.

Infoboxes that use "supported by" are frankly not following Wikipedia template guidelines (What does "supported" mean? Where do you draw the line?) but I've given up arguing the point. The categories are different, as shown in the current Infobox eg France financed the Protestant cause from the 1620s and provided diplomatic support, but did not become a formal Belligerent until it declared war on the Habsburgs in 1635.

IMO, the article does not need to be changed; the Eighty Years War is already listed as a related conflict. The Anglo-Spanish War is a related conflict of the Eighty Years War, not the Thirty Years - if you argue for the inclusion of related conflicts of related conflicts, then this list will get far bigger.

Image removed; whoever constructed this spent a lot of time on it but its been challenged before and I don't know how to edit it.Robinvp11 (talk) 13:55, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

I really do appreciate the discussion, as it did not seem to have previously been talked about and I clearly do not know enough on the subject to what to edit the article.

I see what your saying about related conflicts, but the 80 Years War article says it's also part of the 30 Years War. For the layman (me) there seems to be some inconsistency among the various articles about what forms part of what. As mentioned, whatever article I was reading yesterday linked to this article with a piped link that stated England had declared war based on religion before.2603:7080:9207:AD00:11C7:D858:80EF:9A0A (talk) 21:00, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The question of English involvement has been covered in a previous, now archived discussion, but no harm in asking for clarification :).

As you can appreciate, getting Wikipedia articles to align is like nailing jello to the wall, but I will take a look. The one on the Anglo-Spanish War certainly needs updating, it has no references and contains a number of fairly obvious errors. So I will certainly update that.

Can you recall which article or link states England declared war based on religion; that would be a vast over-simplification of the diplomatic reality.

Thanks for your help in improving coverage of this period. Robinvp11 (talk) 17:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Result

Have there been any past discussion about the result of the war? and if so, what was the consensus? I'm just curious Gvssy (talk) 23:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "Result"; if it's "Who won", then you need to refer to the Aftermath section which goes into this in some detail.

Unlike individual battles, wars end in treaties (here, Westphalia), and are rarely clear cut in terms of winners and losers. Robinvp11 (talk) 07:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah alright, thank you for the answer. Gvssy (talk) 09:17, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia listing for Thirty Years War

This Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Conflicts_in_1618 should include a listing of this source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War

Thanks Bw Schulz 23:38, 1 February 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bwschulz (talk • contribs)

Army Strength infobox

John A. Lynn and Jan Glete give 125,000 real maximum stength for the French and 200,000 nominal strength. How is there such a big difference with Parrot? What does he say exactly? And does it really make sense to only include the Army of Flanders for Spain and only the Swedish troops in Germany for the Swedes? I think it is misleading DavidDijkgraaf (talk) 12:14, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

It's definitely misleading. The number for the Swedes should include all troops that fought in Swedish service, not just the national Swedish and Finnish troops. For Spain, it is more complex; are the troops that fought Portugal in the Restoration War or Catalonia in the Reaper's War really part of the Thirty Years War? Most historians wouldn't include them and neither would we. But the Spanish troops facing France outside of Flanders? They are closely associated with the Thirty Years War because they usually fought on the territory of the HRE, in alliance with the Emperor against a common foe (whereas the Emperor e. g. almost never openly fought the Dutch). And the Spanish and Imperial Army frequently exchanged troops, both in Flanders and in northern Italy. Therefore, at least Spanish troops in northern Italy (if numbers are available) should be included. Palastwache (talk) 16:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

first perhaps we should look at Army of Flanders, which Geoffrey Parker 86,235 personnel in 1574 and 49,765 in 1607. i think this should give us insight of the Spanish recruitments condition during the span of eighty years war and thirty years war Ahendra (talk) 17:07, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I feel these points have been largely addressed in the FNs attached to the Strength figures. If you think they're unclear, we can discuss potential changes.

John A. Lynn and Jan Glete give 125,000 real maximum strength for the French and 200,000 nominal strength. How is there such a big difference with Parrot? What does he say exactly?

Footnote (c) refers specifically to the difference between "Reported" (or "Authorised" if you prefer), and "Actual". These are educated guesses by historians, so I'm not surprised there are differences. That's before we get into the discussion of what proportion of Dutch/Spanish troops were engaged in the Thirty Years War (this article) versus the Eighty. We should not fool ourselves into thinking these figures are anything other than estimates.

I don't know which Parrott Source this refers to (there are several), but as the person quoting it, presumably you can answer this question. Since he is the Source for the difference between "Reported" (ie Authorised) and "Actual" strengths in the FN above, I would imagine it has something to do with that.

And does it really make sense to only include the Army of Flanders for Spain and only the Swedish troops in Germany for the Swedes?

The number for the Swedes should include all troops that fought in Swedish service, not just the national Swedish and Finnish troops.

Footnote (d) in the Infobox specifically states the figures refer to "In service of ", ie all troops nominally part of the Swedish army, not simply Swedes and Finns.

Footnote (f) covers Spanish figures; 90k is way too high for the Army of Flanders, but it implies roughly 50% of the officially sanctioned figure of 200k in the entire Spanish military establishment (which includes garrisons in Spain, Portugal, Italy and other possessions) was involved in the war. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

If you want to suggest alternative figures, please do so. Robinvp11 (talk) 07:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Lets discuss step by step.

footnote C, i agree it should be valid professional estimation or guess from historian, but it should be noted as estimation rather than raw data from primary Source S

footnote D i have no comments, i havent yet delving too much about Swrdish army composition

footnote F also agree, this conflict were spanned in 30 years length, so the maximum numbers of the Flanders army doesnt meant much with the total casualties at the end of the conflict, since its pretty sure the cadualties arent estimated from single battle alone, not to mention about the further recruitments of new soldiers for each post-battle. So the fluctuation of numbers arent unreasonable 139.193.50.17 (talk) 22:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I have problems with this line

Battles generally featured armies of around 13,000 to 20,000 each, one of the largest being Alte Veste in 1632 with a combined 70,000 to 85,000. Estimates of the total deployed by both sides within Germany range from an average of 80,000 to 100,000 from 1618 to 1626, peaking at 250,000 in 1632 and falling to under 160,000 by 1648

citation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War#cite_note-FOOTNOTEClodfelter200840-10 by Micheal Clodfelter

So far i didnt find any single engagement in this war that reached 250,000 personnels. perhaps we should examine this case? Ahendra (talk) 21:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

250k refers to the total number of troops under arms, regardless of location eg field armies in different theatres, garrisons etc.

13,000 to 20,000 refers to the size of the armies present at any specific individual battle or siege, such as Alte Veste. I hope this makes sense. Robinvp11 (talk) 08:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)