Talk:Kurdish language

First attested text in kurdish?

I see some discussions about early kurdish texts but i never see the earlist text itself and date of it. Was is it kurmanji? I couldn't find a date for proto kurdish in academical papers in that matter. It is also missing in wiki page "List of languages by first written accounts". Can someone fill this gap without any nationalist non-sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.251.63.42 (talk) 10:05, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I found info in cambridge history of kurds page 613. It says first proper kurdish text is 4 short lines in christian missionary prayer.ISBN 978-1-108-47335-4 I hope an editor would enter this important info in the article.i am copying from the book:

The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b –see Asatrian, 2009: 15). Th

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.38.157.239 (talk) 18:54, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

• What I think should be changed:

History tab

• Why it should be changed:

History tab begins with highly controversal sources. Stating first attested kurdish texts is from 9 to 13th centuries. First attested kurdish text is from 14th century. It is four short lines from a prayer. First attested text iand its date is very important for all languages. History section needs to start with this info and controversal topics should follow it as an additional info if wont be removed at all. Please also refer to talk page.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

p613: The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b –see Asatrian, 2009: 15). 109.38.157.239 (talk) 19:14, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

References

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. This is clearly controversial. Should be resolved by talk page discussion. I'll note that the other source is also form a reputable publisher. Without context as to what each source is reporting, I'm not able to figure out whether this is a legitimate conflict between sources or if the two sources are reporting different things RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:23, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

First reference is to a so called Ibn-Waḥšīya book. If you check article of Ibn-Waḥšīya in wikipedia you can find that this book is falsified in later influence section. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Wahshiyya

Second reference is to Yazidi Black Book whose authenticity is also questioned and mentioned in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi_Black_Book

First actual attested Kurdish that we can rely on is stated in Cambridge History of Kurds. 84.29.122.234 (talk) 08:52, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Lightoil (talk) 12:18, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any objections to the change request. Isn't consensus already achieved? 109.36.128.125 (talk) 11:29, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. @84.29.122.234, do not reopen this edit request as you did here without providing proper citations and gaining consensus for the changes you wish to make. Xan747 (talk) 00:50, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

There is consensus on this change. What else do you expect? There is no objections at all. 2001:1C03:5800:8600:8DFF:C60D:7B71:CF7C (talk) 11:56, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Map wars

Although a couple of you made edits leading up to the war regarding the deletion of a map before it became a war, I'm pinging all of you here just in case: Ayıntaplı, Serchia, Semsûrî, Paradise Chronicle, see WP:Edit warring. Largoplazo (talk) 10:53, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah thanks. Well I explained my rationale in my edit summary before it became a war and have now added the original map. I hope this helps a bit. The coloring could be upgraded a bit, though but I do not know how this is done. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 14:32, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't see this as something of great caution. Almost all edits had distinct reasons, and there was no deadlock due to disagreement. Semsûrî restored the original version of the map, which my main concern addressed. So, it was solved. There may be other aspects of the map that may be discussed, though. Ayıntaplı (talk) 15:52, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Semsûrî, What are the problems of the map that you think solved by revert to on older version? Serchia (talk) 18:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

You really can't see the issue here? Changing the map without a reliable reference is Wikipedia:OR. Semsûrî (talk) 18:31, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

If the current map (which is referenced) has issues, the map shouldn't be used either. Semsûrî (talk) 18:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 October 2022

The Kurdish language map was updated recently and for some reason the colors were changed. We need to manually update the colors on the map legend on every page that contains the map 195.169.52.91 (talk) 13:19, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: A cursory glance at the map shows that it's functional, so a determination on the specific colors to use would be a consensus issue. Furthermore, edit requests require you state what needs to change specifically. In other words, you'd have to present all of the necessary template parameters to change the colors to the desired version. I would simply advise you bring up this topic on all of the appropriate article talk pages instead of using edit requests. —Sirdog (talk) 05:01, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 December 2022

Hello, I suggest this edit: In the section of where this language is official please remove that is official only in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq, when is official in ALL Iraq. 186.3.232.209 (talk) 20:54, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, the infobox already says that the language is official in Iraq. What is the text that you want to change? – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:23, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

why persian dialect has a language page on wikipedia

What does a dialect that has not been the mother tongue of any state throughout history, is not found in written sources, and has no speakers before the 20th century, on Wikipedia? Royroy23 (talk) 13:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

The correct thing is to write the parts on this page in the Persian dialects section. Royroy23 (talk) 13:53, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

What dialect are you talking about? Surely you aren't talking about Kurdish, which, according to the very first sentence of the History section, was written over 1000 years ago. And why do you think a language has to have been the "mother tongue of any state" (see Yiddish or Hmong language) or has to be written (see Bagvalal language or Gweno language) or has to have been spoken before the 20th century (see Lingala or Esperanto) for there to be an article about it? Largoplazo (talk) 15:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Just ignore the editor. They clearly have an anti-Kurdish POV per their edits on Wikipedia. Semsûrî (talk) 16:01, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 July 2023

Adding the important fact that many kurdish languages are not mutually intelligible, which was missing from the lead.

In the lead, replace:

Kurdish constitutes a dialect continuum

With:

Kurdish languages constitutes a dialect continuum many of which are not Mutually intelligible (citing this source: https://books.google.com.eg/books?id=JZ6JAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA27) 156.208.108.3 (talk) 18:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Cherrell410 (talk) 23:11, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 July 2023

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

First paragraph in the history tab should be deleted: During his stay in Damascus, historian Ibn Wahshiyya came across two books on agriculture written in Kurdish, one on the culture of the vine and the palm tree, and the other on water and the means of finding it out in unknown ground. He translated both from Kurdish into Arabic in the early 9th century AD.

Instead we need to add: The first proper ‘text’ in Kurdish is a short four-line Christian missionary prayer, written in Armenian characters and found inside a larger manuscript in Armenian from the fifteenth century (held at the Collection of Matanadaran in Yerevan, no. 7117, fol. 144b)

Beginning of second paragraph: Among the earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book, the sacred book of Yazidi faith.

Should be changed as: Possible earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book whose authenticity is questioned and believed to be a fusion of authentic Yazidi traditions and beliefs with Western forgeries.

• Why it should be changed:

First paragraph is referring to a book "Ancient Alphabets and Hieroglyphic Characters Explained" by Ibn Wahshiyya. But it is falsely attributed to him as discussed in Later influence section in Ibn Wahshiyya. It is forgery or not a reliable source at best.

Yazidi Black book is also not a reliable source as discussed in the first paragraph of Yazidi Black Book.

I am simply trying to have consistency among referred wikipedia pages. We have already consensus on the content and sources on those pages. We also have a section in talk page on this topic. No objection is raised for nearly two years.

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

I am adding source for the first proper text in Kurdish below. It is in page 613.

84.29.122.234 (talk) 09:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

References

84.29.122.234 (talk) 09:42, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

 On hold Source cannot be checked, can you provide a link for that or just wait for the peer-review? -Lemonaka 21:08, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: Verified the statement about the Christian prayer from an offline copy; adding it now. I'm not yet adding any content about the Yazidi Black Book as the citations in that article are from tertiary sources, which should be avoided in favor of secondary sources. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:38, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for checking the source. I am asking to remove parts referring to Ibn Wahshiyya and Yazidi Black Book. They have been discussed more in detail in their wiki pages and falsified. I can provide more reliable sources that never mentions about these two. You can check https://iranicaonline.org/articles/kurdish-language-i quickly and see in the very first paragraph that Kurdish texts goes no earlier than 16th century. Reliable academic books states Kurdish poems from 15th and 16th centuries are the first Kurdish texts in history. 84.29.122.234 (talk) 14:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.  Spintendo  05:01, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Souther kurdish is as important as other dialects

In the map showing the kurdish language, by the colors it’s written the type of kurdish languages but not souther kurdish, its just written kurmanji as pink, and sorani as red, while southern kurdish is brown but it didn’t say that under the map 2001:8F8:1B27:415B:D180:CAA4:544C:BB4F (talk) 09:35, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Kurdish speakers

Kurdish speaker are more than this couse many people are starting to learn the language plus some kurds now have rights to learn their language especialy northren kurdistan people just started to have more edaction about it couse back on the day kurdis was banned and also it was dangrous to many to speak it so please fix this Hogirkurdish15 (talk) 00:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

You haven't said why you think the numbers shown don't include those people. You also haven't identified for us, if the numbers shown don't include those people, where we can find numbers that do include those people. Largoplazo (talk) 03:04, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh i mean this one is from 2020 and today is 2024 it make sense that there are more people learning kurdish plus more than 20 millions kurds live in turkey how native speakers is 25 when also in iraq kurds are 7 millions these two countries must have atleast 27 million speakers and kurds are native two those two countries plus iran and syria and there are some mistakes its not called kurdish languages but dialects and you forget some more like luri bakhtiyari hawrami laki and kalhuri there are more but i forget if i got more information i may tell more dialects couse oh boy we have too many dialects Hogirkurdish15 (talk) 10:48, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 15 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved Kurdish languages to Kurdish language. There is consensus to treat the Kurdish language the same way as other languages in a similar situation and use the singular. There is no consensus to move it to the basename "Kurdish" due to possible ambiguity with other articles mentioned at Kurdish. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 16:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

---

• Kurdish languages → ?
• Kurdish → Kurdish (disambiguation)

– The title of this article could be either "Kurdish Language," aligning with the naming convention of other Wikipedia articles discussing "macro" languages or languages forming a dialect continuum, such as "Norwegian Language" or "Chinese Language," which are in a similar situation to Kurdish. Alternatively, we may consider simplifying it to just "Kurdish," similar to the "Arabic" Wikipedia article, thereby sidestepping any contentious debates and maintaining a neutral stance. It seems unjustified for Kurdish to be the only article labeled with "Languages" when there is no consensus on whether it comprises multiple related languages or a single language with various dialects. Kurdian (talk) 00:36, 15 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:44, 22 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Adumbrativus (talk) 04:04, 2 February 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 11:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose given that Kurdish (Kurmanci) and Kurdish (Sorani) are distinguished on multiple apps and softwares (not least Google translate) as well as in scholarship, keeping languages plural is helpful. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Besides which Kurmanci and Sorani are clearly more different than Danish and Norwegian for example, so leave it as plural. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:35, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. Norwegian (Bokmål and Nynorsk) and Chinese languages like Mandarin and Cantonese are often treated separately in software as well.

Regarding dialect differences, Sorani and Kurmanji are no more distinct than Mandarin and Cantonese, or various Arabic languages. Kurdian (talk) 01:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

The main reason for this is that they are under the rule of separate states and use separate alphabets. Neribij (talk) 07:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose since I don't believe "Chinese language" should be the page title either. It has a redirect so I'm not concerned about people finding the page. "Kurdish languages" is more accurate to the linguistic categorization through mutual intelligibility. "Kurdish" is too ambiguous (Kurdish people, etc.) to be a title. If there is a sociolinguistic component of Kurdish that is important to it being considered a single language, then would reconsider my position._{too_much} curiosity (talk) 19:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Support per WP:COMMONNAME (see below). _{too_much} curiosity (talk) 07:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Support "Kurdish language" per WP:COMMONNAME (see below). Oppose "Kurdish" per Aintabli's comment and insights on usage of the term. _{too_much} curiosity (talk) 16:47, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to comment that there are currently discussions about merging the "Chinese language" page with others since it is inaccurate. _{too_much} curiosity (talk) 19:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

The problem is, there is no agreement among linguists on whether Kurdish is one language or multiple, and that's why the article's name being in the plural is a bit puzzling. I would argue that the majority of sources view it as a single language with multiple dialects.[1][2][3] [4] [5][6] Although there is ongoing debate on the topic, the term "Kurdish Language" is still more commonly used.[7][8] Even official documents, such as the constitution of Iraq – the sole country where Kurdish holds official language status – treat it as a single language.[9] Additionally, most Kurds typically call their language "Kurdish/kurdi". The view of Kurdish as a single entity is important to Kurds because of historical factors like foreign rule, geographic divisions, and restrictions imposed by external powers, leading to non-mutual intelligibility and the use of different scripts among Kurdish varieties.[10] Kurdian (talk) 21:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

As a Kurd, I prefer to put "Kurdish language" because the language consists of several terms that are all related to each other and form a Language. Zamand Karim (talk) 14:22, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't say which one is right choice, but I see Kurdish as one language and I have never said "Kurdish languages". The title of this article in Kurdish Wikipedias: ku, ckb, diq and sdh (even in Arabic Wikipedia "اللغة الكردية" not "اللغات الكردية") is written singularly, not plural. I don't know if this is the same for native-English speakers. ⇒ AramTalk 18:24, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Some very good points. Changing to support due to WP:COMMONNAME. While the "dialects" are not mutually intelligible, and may be classified as different languages, if the common usage is "Kurdish language", it makes sense to change the title. And, yes, there is no "Arabic languages" page or "Scandinavian language" (Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are all somewhat mutually intelligible) page, so titles aren't really driven by linguistic criteria anyway. That being said, I think the lede sentence must be: "The Kurdish language, or Kurdish languages, ..." (both should be highlighted in bold) to emphasize the mutual intelligibility criteria typically used to distinguish languages. _{too_much} curiosity (talk) 07:31, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Kurdistan has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:45, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Languages has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:45, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Support "Kurdish" per nom, no need splitting hairs here. Orchastrattor (talk) 16:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom especially in terms of ending future contentious debates. Semsûrî (talk) 17:48, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Support "Kurdish" per nom, following the Arabic example, which actually consists of at least 6 major mutually unintelligible languages with different language codes. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 06:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Very strong oppose "Kurdish" (the choice that omits "language"). The example of Arabic does not apply here, because "Arabic" is not used for the people, culture, or anything that is not the language. It "only" designates the language. "Kurdish" is used for many concepts in addition to language. This choice contradicts Wikipedia's simplest guidelines. No comment on the other options. Aintabli (talk) 21:24, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Cantonese. Largoplazo (talk) 01:01, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Italian language, Turkish language, Persian language, Swedish language, Danish language, Azerbaijani language, and so on. Please see WP:NCDAB. Aintabli (talk) 03:47, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Why did you provide that list of article titles? I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Surely you're aware that demonstrating that "X" exists doesn't demonstrate that "not X" doesn't exist. Fallacies 101. Largoplazo (talk) 12:06, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

It was in the same format as your comment, which makes your response somewhat ironic. Surely, I did not state that "X exists and !X doesn't exist" anywhere. That link is not a policy. If your point was that titles omitting "language" can be used despite the term being used for many other concepts, I haven't checked if the title of Cantonese is currently policy-based, and if it was, it was so probably because of WP:COMMONNAME. Here [11][12], you can see that "Kurdish", unlike "Cantonese", is sharply different in the distribution of contexts it is used within. Aintabli (talk) 15:07, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom for Kurdish. Used unqualified it is clear enough that it describes the language(s). --عُثمان (talk) 19:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose a move to plain Kurdish. No opinion on language(s). Srnec (talk) 19:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relist, after adding a proposal to move Kurdish to Kurdish (disambiguation) per requirement that any other page that must be moved should be notified and included in the move request. Note this doesn't preclude this discussion finding a consensus to move Kurdish languages somewhere other than Kurdish, in which case the disambiguation page would not need to be moved. BilledMammal (talk) 11:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Support I completely agree with what you've stated. Krqftan (talk) 07:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Kurdish. Oppose move to "Kurdish language". Despite it likely being the common name, it's a controversial one that can be avoided. FunLater (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Phonology, Grammar and Writing system sections are empty?

Why are these sections empty? Most language articles have a short summary of their language's phonology, grammar and writing system, but for some reason in the Kurdish Languages article it's completely empty? Silveratractic (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

They're not empty, they redirect to their own Wiki pages. There is a blue text under each title. Krqftan (talk) 07:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

There should be a summary of the phonlogy, grammar and writing system under each section. Although the redirects are useful, it's not meant to replace all the text in each respective sections. Silveratractic (talk) 20:05, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

More countries recognise kurdish language

You forget georgia sweden and thee maby more recognise it as a minority language Hogirkurdish15 (talk) 19:46, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Not that I can find. Are you able to provide any sources? Krqftan (talk) 07:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

https://www.rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/090120241 is this one enough cause if not I will find another one Hogirkurdish15 (talk) 11:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Font?

This is not related to the language but, what is name of the font of Sorani letters? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kurdish_Language.svg

-Luke 70.162.148.16 (talk) 18:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I think the font is "Nizar Nastaliq Kurdish", which is nastaliq. It is better to ask the png version uploader directly. ⇒ AramTalk 14:57, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 March 2024

add references:

Sheyholislami, Jaffer, Hassanpour, Amir, and Skutnabb-Kangas, Tove. 2012. The Kurdish Linguistic Landscape:

Vitality, Linguicide and Resistance. Special issue of International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 2917(2012). Jaffersh (talk) 00:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Its unclear where in the text you want these reference to be added. Jamedeus (talk) 00:37, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The claim that Kurdish is not mutually intelligible?

I’m not here to disturb the page or add any, I’m just curious as to why the Kurdish dialects are considered not intelligible? From my understanding and experience, I understand a Kurmanji, Hewrami, Laki and Zazaki way more than Persian, which to me personally sounds like gibberish and not close to Kurdish at all (This was my experience with Shirazi and Gilan Persian)

Other than my rant above, I just want to know why this is included because it is still debated whether Kurdish dialects are dialects or languages (most people who argue the latter usually have an anti-kurdish POV based on experience) Volkish Kurden (talk) 23:49, 17 April 2024 (UTC)