Talk:German camps in occupied Poland during World War II/Archive 1

Initial discussion of the raw list

A source for this most authoritative-looking list (obviously there is one close at hand), will be welcome. I've made a space for it at External links

The heading for this entry is missing. The one piece of information it needs to contain is, what makes a Nazi concentration camp a camp for Poles? If this list is of camps and sub-camps exclusively for Poles, then it is quite different from a list of concentration camps known to have contained some Poles. Wetman 10:48, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't think we really need such list. AFAIK there were no camps for Poles exclusively. None of those listed was such a camp. On the contrary, there were Poles in most (if not all) concentration and death camps. I know there are lots of people out there who believe that concentration camps were for Jews only, but such a list will not change it. I suggest we deleted this article.Halibutt 12:29, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is the list of camps where Poles were interned, not only by Nazis, but Soviet Union as well, since, as I see it includes some Siberian cities. The suggestion about deletion of informanion not readily available is simply ridiculous. Mikkalai 02:16, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm not really sure I understand you. Do you mean that this article is not ready? In such case it should be in someones' Sandbox, not here. Or perhaps you mean it's very important and the info is hard to find? It's not, it's just official document of the Polish Council of Ministers, it can be found easily. And I really think the text should be translated and formatted prior to posting. Moreover, how does anyone expect a foreigner to know that Rusocin and Russoschin are the very same place and that Łódź ulica Żeligowskiego is not a city name..?Halibutt 02:37, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "ready article" in Wikipedia. To prepare this article is a huge job for a single person, and putting it into one's sandbox limits its visibility.

I vote for this list not because I particularly love Poles; they oppressed my country for quite some time, and there is a popular expression in my native language, loosely translated as "Polish arrogance". This list has more information than it seems.

After it is done with, it will not look so strange. Mikkalai 04:27, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This article needs to be translated into English, to be given some historical context, and to have all the HTML code junk removed from it, or it will continue to be threatened with deletion. At the moment it is a mess and quite useless as an encyclopaedia article. Adam 06:08, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

There's a similar articel for Gulags - it's kind of disturbing because the implication is again that only Poles were interred there. Surely better to have an article on the subject in general, and treat groups specifically if necessary? Mark Richards

Especially that the list lists basically all concentration camps out thereHalibutt 07:51, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Furthermore, the underlying assumption of this article is that Polish Jews were not Poles. What definition of "Pole" is being used here? I think this whole exercise has a Polish nationalist / anti-Semitic agenda. I still think it should be deleted. Adam 08:15, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. Since Polish Jews were and are Poles, I'm not understanding why there aren't concentration camps in which Nazis killed Polish Jews on here. This whole thing is creepy. Moncrief, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Why you think that those are missing here? Cautious 12:20, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Relax, guys. This is a HUGE job. If one wants to help, welcome here. Otherwise shut up and don't spread panic. No shit hit the fan yet. Mikkalai 08:46, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Excuse me? "Shut up" is a very strong phrase in English. Moncrief, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't mind being told to shut up (I'm used to it), I do mind that Mikkalai is making no effort to respond to the criticisms of this "article" - the problem is not that it is unfinished, but that it is (to coin a phrase) shit. Adam 08:51, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The article is barely started day ago from a huge list of camps. There are two ways to deal with shit: to step into it, and to turn it into fertilizer. If you guys can put in more detail about these camps, it will sooner turn from shit into something useful. Mikkalai 16:56, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Also, why under the See Also section, does it say "Forced labor camps for Jews (Zwangsarbeitslager fur Juden)" rather than "concentration camp," the term used elsewhere in the article for every other group (such as "Poles")?? Moncrief, 9 Mar 2004(UTC)

It is translation of the German name and to differentiate from extermination camps, I think. Cautious 12:18, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If one knowledgeable tells here what there camps really were it is better be documentary (translation with original naming), rather than to put a label right out of the head. Mikkalai 16:59, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's my understanding from the Gulag page talk that these camps and Gulags etc did not only contain Poles, so I propose that we rename this page List of concentration camps, and the other page List of Gulag camps. Mark Richards 19:08, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This particular one, as it looks now is definitely for Poles. List of concentration camps must be structured differently. To compile it is an enormous job. Let it grow as it goes now, unless someone is willing to undertake a role of coordinator. Mikkalai 20:46, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually it doesn't look at all as though this is a list of camps for Poles, I don't think a single one of those housed only Poles, certainly not all of them - why do you think that title is better? Thanks, Mark Richards 21:56, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Attention: Did these concentration camps house only Poles? If not, why are they listed separately here as if they did? Moncrief, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Agreed - a name change is needed here. Mark Richards 08:02, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The whole list was copied over from the Polish law. I think the list was created by some historians working for Polish government, to verify retirenment rights of former prisoners. Somebody can claim, i.e. that he was imprisoned in concentration camp Washington DC, but then he can be verified by the list of actually existing camps. Logically derived conclusion says, the list should include all existing camps. Cautious 08:43, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sure, but unless it is made clear that this is a list derived from some Polish law, then it is a list of conentration camps. To call it a list of camps FOR POLES is misleading, since the camps were 'for' many groups. The name needs to change, either to recognise the source, List of concentration camps referenced by Polish law or somesuch, or List of concentration camps. Mark Richards 16:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Talk from the VFD page

• An enormously long list of Polish and German place-names, with no context or explanation, plus some odd bits of Polish text. What is it about Polish history at Wikipedia? I suspect this is part of the extremely tiresome Polish v Jewish polemic that obsesses some Users. Adam 00:03, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • There are no Jewish opponents of the list. Besides, Jewish Poles were also imprisoned in those camps. Cautious 12:16, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• Delete or some serious work needed. There must be some more explanation as to what this list is of and some tidying up to be done if it to be kept. --Tappyea 00:06, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• NO WAY there could be this many concentration camps for one nationality. And, c'mon, what's with ganging up on Poles?? Delete. --Ryan and/or Mero 02:02, Mar 9, 2004 (UTC)
  • There is no remark, that those camps were exclusive for Poles. Cautious 12:16, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• KEEP You obviously have no idea what this list actually is. Currently it is being processed. It is RAW DATA for collaborative effort. I feel an extreme sorrow to see such an attitude among encyclopedists. Mikkalai 02:22, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete: this is not a place for that particular collaboration: create a web page somewhere, collaborate and write up something which is encylopedic (NPOV) then submit that to wikipedia. JimD 02:38, 2004 Mar 9 (UTC)
    • Having list is encyclopedic. Why we have so many lists? Cautious 12:16, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • Will you rent us some bandwidth, please? We are working for wikipedia, not for Uncle Sam or Chaim Rabinowicz. The visibility of the page gives a chance to expand cooperation. I joined it by simply seeing it. I have no particular love for Poles, but did you know about, e.g., 's-Hertogenbosch camp (or about 's-Hertogenbosch at all)? Mikkalai 02:50, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
      • Could you move it to your User space and delete it out of the name space until it's complete, then? RickK 04:11, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
        • I am not the initiator; let him decide. It is a matter of several days to finish the work, well within the time allocated for deletion by rules without further wasting my time on this disussion. Keeping it as is may bring other participants, to make the life of the originator easier. Mikkalai 05:18, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, this whole article is built on the assumption that Nazis segregated their camps by nationality, which is untrue, and that Polish Jews were not Poles. It is using a racist and anti-Semitic definition of "Pole" to further the tiresome Polish nationalist agenda that we-suffered-more-under-the-Nazis-than-these-endlessly-complaining-Jews-did. The whole exercise is offensive as well as unencyclopaedic and should be deleted. Adam 08:27, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • It is not true. The list includes also extermination camps and makes no difference against Jewish Poles. Cautious 12:05, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)~
    • By the way, Nazis segregated people according to nationality. You should know it, that made a lot of difference in Nazi Europe if you were Jewish, Polish or Ukrainian. for example Ukrainian could even study of university, that was denied to Poles. And every man had assigned nationality. Your post is misleading. Cautious 15:03, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Unencyclopedic and for all the other reasons mentioned. Moncrief, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. The list is used in the article describing the WW2 attrocities in Poland. Currently, WW2 attrocities in Wikipedia has no good description. There are only part of information. For me, the list give some hint, how many those subcamps there were.

In addition there are no remark, that those camps served only for Poles. In most cases, it is a complete list of subcamps of particular concentration camp.

• • Also, why do we need List of Nazi camps that detained Poles and

List of Gulag camps that detained Poles in addition to this article (if the votes are to keep this one)? Seems redudant to me. If you think I should put a separate listing for either of those entries, please do it for me. Moncrief, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• If this is really a suitable topic for an article, it should be called List of labour camps in German-occupied Poland or something like that, to avoid the inherently racist / anti-Semitic content of the current title. Adam 10:41, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • I found it extremely offensive that you find a list of camps racist. Where it is written, that a Jew cannot be a Pole? I expect an apology.[User:Cautious|Cautious]] 12:16, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    • Is in whole history of Polish anti-Semitism written. In statements like yours above that "There are no Jewish opponents of the list" it is written. How you are knowing who is Jewish, hmm? You think that because my name isn't Chaim Finkelsztajn I am not Jewish? You people every time giving yourselves away are. Adam 14:36, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
      • You brought here Jeiwsh-Polish aspect of the problem. I simply don't understand your problem. Do you have a problem with Jews or Poles, Adam? Also I don't think there is any connection between alleged Polish anti-Semitism and subject of our talk. Cautious 14:58, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Also improve it (but that is a standard commandment for all Wikipedia pages). The scope of the page has to be defined properly but that can probably be done in a few sentences. Moncrief's comments about multiple coverage are reasonable, but RickK's suggestion that it be developed off-line is ridiculous. Adam's accusations are bizarre to put it generously. --Zero 11:31, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• I have also one more point. In each of those camps suffered at least one individuall. I believe then on avarage 10 000 or more. If there were such a suffering, we should record the name of that place. Otherwise, we sentence the human suffering to non-existance. And this is not good. Wikipedia is a good place to remember. Cautious 12:52, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• KEEP, but under different name. Like List of concentration camps that detained Poles or something like that. Eon 14:30, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Yes, that's the idea. If you migh have noticed, I created sub-lists named in this, more accurate way. Mikkalai 16:38, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• In view of discussions on whether it is not enough to call Stalin or Hitler "dictator" and other nasty names 5 times on the page and it should be done six or better ten times, this attack on the memory of *actual* victims is so outrageous. If you don't like that the list is only about Poles, it is YOUR problem, not author's. It is YOU who doesn't care to make a similar list for your own nationality. Mikkalai 16:38, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

So you're suggesting that, for each group that was detained, we copy the list and change the title? Mark Richards 16:23, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• • The problem is that these camps and gulags did not only detain Poles, and the lists imply that they did. The name should be changed to List of concentration camps and List of Gulag camps, and nationalities listed under each camp if necessary. There was nothing exclusive about these camps. Mark Richards 07:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Discussion about renaming

This "super-list" in essence the list of repressive detainment of Polish nationals (citizens of Poland regardless nationality and Poles regardless citizenship), by Germans, Soviets, and by Communist Poland.

In particular, the section "Sites of internment camps of the Security police" most probably refers to the infamous UB -- Urzad Biezpieczenstwa of the People's Republic of Poland.

Any suggestions for a brief name?

• List of concentration camps Mark Richards 19:23, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The article as it stands now is exclusively about Poles, in Polish territory, with references to other lists, renamed without the word "Poles". Mikkalai 20:16, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Then why is there a sub-section on camps specifically for Poles? Mark Richards 20:20, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Because it is the translation of the German term (added), probably incorrect. Maybe, Polenlager were camps that were governed by polish collaborators, or something else. Once again, please give a chance for an expert to decide, on the contents and the name. Mikkalai 20:31, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• I suggest Repressive detainment in Poland Mikkalai 20:31, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • That would do, my objection is that these camps were not exclusively for Poles - to say that is misleading. Mark Richards 20:32, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  • Or, if we wait a bit more, the article will eventually dissolve into more specific subarticles, to be happily deleted. Mikkalai 20:35, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• • I don't understand what you are suggesting 'happily deleted'? 'disolve into more specific subarticles' - perhaps you have in mind something like List of concentration camps for Poles with red hair? Since you suggested that change, and I agree, let's move it, since you seem to agree that the current title doesn't describe the contents. Mark Richards 20:37, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Good bye

Thanks for your attention. I am done here and gone to the List of Gulag camps for a loooooonnnnnnng time. Mikkalai 18:09, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Made the move

Hope there is no offense caused by this, but it clearly isn't a list of camps for Poles exclusively. The text explains this. Mark Richards 18:35, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You evidently didn't look into the page recently, as well as didn't read its talk, not to say you have shown you are not familiar with the topic. I opened a section above to discuss and select the proper name. Please add you proposals for renaming there and don't move before consensus. Mikkalai 19:05, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Appologies, it was not clear to me from what you wrote that you were inviting feedback on a name change. Mark Richards 19:22, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is your second warning, man. You tend to start significant meddling with things out or the area of your immediate expertise without talking to people. Please, talk. There is no hurry here. There is no schedule to meet and money to lose. Everything is minute before the infinity. Mikkalai 20:31, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Your abusive and threatening tone is unwarented, and your beligerance and refusal to address issues that are raised is disturbing. You seem to want to meet every reasonable request for clarification with a diversionary insult or digression. Mark Richards 22:24, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• The issues are addressed. On one occasion I have already told you that discussions here are slow due to the way how people contribute here. You seem to disregard this and keep pushing impatiently. Mikkalai 22:47, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• You are warned, not threatened. I don't know what I am doing with the page of Poles, whom I don't particularly like, and now I have to tolerate you idle curiosity. When you start contributing some material, even with errors, we shall talk. So far you are mostly trolling here. Mikkalai 22:43, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Warned of what, I'm not sure, but your rambling explanation that you don't like Poles and don't know what you are doing does not inspire confidence. Again you meet a legitimate request for explanation of a bizarre and controvertial series of pages with insults and evasion, I feel that this issue needs to be raised in a broader forum, especially since your unilateral removal of the page from VfD. Yours, Mark Richards 22:55, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have reffered this to Wikipedia:Requests for comment, since I am not able to understand what you are doing. Mark Richards 23:04, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

I still have serious problems with these lists.

• "Sites of internment camps of the Security police"

Which Security police? The SS? The SD? Some other police? What is an internment camp in this context? A POW camp? A concentration camp? Who was interned in them, and why? This needs to be explained.

• • [1] in Polish

Temporary camps organized in 1939 by security police for Poles ( and Germans anti-Nazist i.e. in Danzig) on occupied territories. Later some people were executed, some sent to some other camps, some released. Cautious 12:57, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• "Concentration camps primarily for Poles (Polenlager)"

A Google search for "Polenlager" tells me that these were civilian labour camps, not concentration camps. I think the term concentration camp should be reserved for actual concentration camps (KZ) like Dachau and Belsen in Germany, which were for political and other prisoners.

• • In general, in Poland to get into camp didn't require you to be a prisoner. Sometimes randomly taken people were put to some kind of camps. Labour camps, meaning forced labour camps, are also subject of our interest. Cautious 12:48, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)
• "Extermination camps for children under 14"

There were only six "extermination camps" (this was not their official name of course) in Poland - Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor and Treblinka, and these were specifically for Jews, although of course some others were sent to them as well. So far as I know there were no "extermination camps" for children of any nationality.

• • My fault: the original text says that there were camps, that were just camps for grown-ups, but they are considered extermination camps only for children under 14 years old, in the view of Polish law. Maybe for being in such a camp as the child gives you 2 years of retirenment more or so.

Cautious 12:48, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• Finally none of the links in the article lead to articles about the camps, just to articles about the towns they were near, which is not very useful.

Adam 05:47, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

• • This is good opportunity to add the camp paragraph to the city history.

Cautious 12:48, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

Adam, as for your points:

1. I am not sure what was meant here either by security police.
2. The specific definition of concentration camp is very murky. If they were forced labor camps, the case can be made that they were concentration camps. There should, however, be some distinction drawn between prisons and labor camps.
3. Extermination camps: yes, there were only 6. Jews and Gypsies, though others were certainly exterminated there too, particularly Auschwitz, where Poles were gassed in the early years. There were children's camps, but these were not extermination camps.

There is an excellent book on the Nazi policies of non-Jews in Poland, which was on my desk here at home until literally two days ago (Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation 1939-1944 by Richard Lukas). I will have to get it back and do some checking. Danny 12:00, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

This article has been sitting for a month and no-one has made any effort to improve it. It is still rubbish, but I have deleted the more egregious bits. I still think it should be deleted. Adam 19:38, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In this case it doesn't matter what you think. Sorry. If it is bad, fix it. If you cannot, relaxen and watchen the blinkenlights, and an excerpt from a document of Polish government. Sure these pollocks are all morons and don't know who killed them.

Mikkalai 21:31, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

§ 5. Innymi miejscami odosobnienia określonymi w art. 4 ust. 1 pkt 1 lit. b) ustawy są:

1) przejściowe obozy policji bezpieczeństwa (obozy internowania):

a) Bydgoszcz,

b) Działdowo,

c) Gdańsk-Nowy Port,

d) Gdynia,

e) Gniew,

f) Grabowno,

g) Inowrocław,

h) Lipka (Linde bei Flatow),

i) Luszkówno,

j) Łódź-Radogoszcz (ul. Liściasta),

k) Międzyrzecz,

l) Pabianice,

ł) Piła,

m) Poznań-Fort VII,

n) Sosnowiec,

o) Tczew,

2) wychowawcze obozy pracy (Arbeitserziehungslager): samodzielne oraz utworzone na terenie więzień i obozów przesiedleńczych,

3) karne obozy pracy (Strafarbeitslager): samodzielne oraz utworzone na terenie więzień,

4) obozy typu Polenlager:

a) Beneszów,

b) Bogumin,

c) Chorzów,

d) Czechowice-Dziedzice,

e) Freystadt,

f) Gliwice-Sobieszowice,

g) Gorzyce,

h) Gorzyczki,

i) Katowice-Dąbrówka Mała,

j) Katowice Ligota,

k) Kietrz,

l) Kochłowice,

ł) Korfantów,

m) Lyski

n) Orzesze,

o) Otmuchów,

p) Petrowice,

q) Pogrzebień,

r) Pszów,

s) Racibórz,

t) Rybnik,

u) Siemianowice Śląskie,

v) Zawiść,

w) Żory,

5) obozy pracy przymusowej dla Żydów (Zwangsarbeitslager fur Juden).

§ 6. Innymi miejscami odosobnienia określonymi w art. 4 ust. 1 pkt 1 lit. c) ustawy, w których pobyt dzieci do lat 14 miał charakter eksterminacyjny, a osoby tam osadzone pozostawały w dyspozycji hitlerowskich władz bezpieczeństwa, są obozy:

1) Gniezno,

2) Jabłonowo,

3) Konstantynów Łódzki,

4) Łódź (ul. Hutora 32),

5) Łódź (ul. Kopernika 53/55),

6) Łódź (ul. Łąkowa 4),

7) Łódź (ul. Żeligowskiego 41/43),

8) Młyniewo,

9) Poznań-Główna,

10) Tczew,

11) Zamość,

12) Zwierzyniec.

Firstly the word is "Polacks" not "pollocks," secondly it's an American racist term and I'm neither American not a racist, thirdly don't think you can initimidate me by accusing me of racism, fourthly this in an English-language encyclopaedia so you can't win arguments by posting slabs of Polish, fifthly mere lists are not encyclopaedia articles, sixthly the information in the article was wrong no matter what your document says. Got that? Adam 04:09, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)