Talk:Naming customs of Taiwanese aborigines

This might work better if it was based on Chinese name not Korean name Kappa 16:30, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The guy who created this article used the DEAD WRONG template to start with. Very few Taiwanese people speak any Korean (some speak Japanese). Taiwan's culture and people are never particularly different from China's. And as far as I know, about ALL Taiwanese names are Chinese names only the word usage differ slightly. Some sections, IMO, have to be totally rewritten or abandoned. -- Toytoy 01:53, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

Please be open-minded. While it'd fair to say "most", "vast majority" of Taiwanese surnames are Chinese-derived, ALL is simply not the case. Nor is it the mentality to adopt when attempting to write NPOV articles. A-giau 02:28, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Open-mindedness does not demand sloppy reasoning. This is an encyclopedia article. What we are going to do is to let someone who speaks no Chinese and knows little about Asian cultures have a basic understanding about this topic. The easiest way to do so is to say Taiwanese names follow Chinese naming conventions. Then you will describe the minor variations.

Chickens are birds. Birds are animals. These are the first two things you'll want to say when you're explaining chicken to a bunch of Martians. After that, I will thell them chickens don't fly and they are tasty.

Taiwanese names are variable. So are Chinese names in different provinces. Californian names, following the same logic, are even more variable. There are British, Italian, Germanic, Jewish, African, Asian, Hispanic and Native Americans living in California. They usually follow their own naming conventions plus a little bit of Californian or North American taste. So are the ethnic groups in Taiwan.

To me, this article is mostly of little use. There are no articles about Californian names or West Virginian names. Nor are there Cuban, Bolivian or Peruvian names (they all follow the same Hispanic naming conventions plus a little local flavor). Nor are there Singaporean or Hong Kong names even though their names are much more different from the mainstream Chinese names. -- Toytoy 11:48, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

See Korean name, for example. Articles that are considered useless should be listed for deletion. Instead, I note quite a bit of rewriting on your part, mostly reflecting your stated and preconceived bias that "...as far as I know, about ALL Taiwanese names are Chinese names only the word usage differ slightly". The key phrase being "as far as [you] know".

In terms of techniques, listing half a page of Chinese characters (right below the introduction) to "prove" a pet point does not help your hypothetical "someone who speaks no Chinese and knows little about Asian cultures". A-giau 21:22, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Try it. If you mix up a bunch of today's school children's names from Taiwan and China. I bet you will have a very difficult time to tell many of them apart from names alone. Except for the kids from POOR and UNEDUCATED families, Taiwanese names given by educated parents from 50 or 100 years ago were not that different from China's.

Here are 36 historically important persons of Chiayi County. This is a list I randomly gathered from the web. Some of them are still alive (I guess). Most of them were active at least 50 years ago. Can you show me whose names are typically Taiwanese? Can you show me why a Chinese should not have a name like theirs?

許世賢、王得祿、陳澄波、張李德和、葉王、賴雨若、劉傳來、吳鳳、張進通、林玉書、賴淵平、陳嘉雄、何明德、徐杰夫、陳丁奇、余塘、蒲添生、黃文陶、林添木、陳活源、周鍾瑄、王甘棠、賴尚文、李秋禾、賴時輝、莊伯容、蘇孝德、賴子清、黃文、陳際唐、羅峻明、林歡邦、王傳宗、鐘家成、陳夢林、黃宗焜

If you want a bigger list, here's one for you: A List of Taiwanese Poets. If you want a list roughly sorted by time: A List of Past School Teachers. Fact: many, if not most, names are pretty neutral. 蔡伯宏, 何平, 何炎周, 何德壽, 林金定, 何天註, 黃石生, 郭玉枝 and 賴俊修 were all teachers before 1920. They were under Japanese occupation. Most of them might not be able to speak Mandarin Chinese. Yet many of their names are still very similar to today's names both in China and Taiwan. Please DO an UNBIASED survey of names. -- Toytoy 12:34, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

The whole concept of names similar between Taiwan and China is fatally flawed in one way - even in China commonly used names and name structures vary from dialect region to dialect region. Taiwanese names often conform closer to the Fujianese standard than anything else, and that's not even considering Aboriginal names and Hakka names on top of all the "ordinary" Chinese names.--203.70.89.231 07:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Section removed

I removed a section which claims the romanization of 許世楷 (Koh Se-Kai) is based on Japanese reading of the characters. Koh Se-Kai is exactly the Taiwanese (Min-nan) reading of the characters, and 許 never read Ko in Japanese to the best of my knowledge.[1] Paul Chang 12:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Koh Se-kai is quite close to both Taiwanese (Khó͘ Sè-khái [2]) and Japanese readings (Ko se-kai [3]). Considering he lived in Japan for 33 years, and the appearance of romanization, I assumed it was via Japanese. Oniows 15:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I must admit I don't know much about the Japanese language, but doesn't 許 always read きょ for Chinese names? At least it seems to be the case for Chinese historical figures. (I haven't seen an exception in the Japanese Wikipedia, except Koh Se-Kai.) Maybe he carried the Taiwanese language spelling of his name to Japan? Paul Chang 12:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

According to [4], Kyo is one of the On readings. But from the Japanese wiki article, his name is こー・せかい. This is Kō, not Kyo. Oniows 23:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. So it is an interesting coincidence. Paul Chang 15:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Format

About 90% of the naming conventions for people in Taiwan are the same as those in Chinese names, so I have restructured the article to start off with a link to Chinese names, and then go into detail about where the conventions are different.

Also, I don't think this is true....

When Romanized, some Taiwanese may prefer to keep the original order while others reverse their names to match the European convention, which is the given name before the family name.

No, that's absolutely true. English-language naming conventions in Taiwan diverge immensely from Chinese ones. As a hypothetical, someone named (in Pinyin) Su Huiqin, for example, could go by: Su Hui-qin, Su Hui-cin, Su Hui-chin, Su Huei-chin, Su Wei-chin, any of the former with So instead of Su, whatever romanization fits for Hakka or Taiwanese, an English name with either Su or So as the family name, any Chinese romanization written in English order (First-names Family-name), a Taiwanese Aboriginal name, and any raft of utter misspellings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.70.89.231 (talk) 07:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

place names

Actually I wanted to get more into names of Taiwanese places and things.

relevant article

See http://www.taiwandaily.com.tw/news.php?news_id=22373

Stories abound?

I took this out: "Stories abound of close blood relatives assigned different family names, occasionally leading to incest." What does "stories abound" mean here -- any credible stories? How does changing names lead to incest? Unless there is something more to explain this story, it sounds like an urban legend, and not a particularly believable one at that. - Nat Krause 07:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

罔"市"非本字

Saying 罔飼 would be better than 罔市.

Also isn't Tân Chúi-píⁿ really Tân Súi-píⁿ?

And maybe change "A-píⁿ--a (阿扁)" A-píⁿ-a (阿扁阿)"?

Also mention that 阿 can be seen on ID cards as not just a nickname, especially of older people.

"高金素梅, Hsieh May Chin": say where the Hsieh comes from. --User:Jidanni 2006-07-09

Title

The word "Taiwanese" is not simply refers to the Taiwanese aborigines, this article perhaps needs a more precise title such as "Formosan name" or "naming conventions of Taiwanese aborigines".Luuva (talk) 05:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Anti-romanization policy?

The last sentence of the intro states "As a legacy of the anti-romanisation policy of the past". What's this "anti-romanization policy" refered to here? The Latin alphabet is foreign to Taiwan and the governments that had goverend it. How can there be an "anti-romanization policy"?o (talk) 23:23, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Some latinized writing systems which were invented for some aboriginal languages and Han dialects had already exist in Taiwan for years before the Han Chinese governed the island. These writing systems were later oppressed or prohibited by the Japanese and the early ROC authorities. luuva (talk) 09:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

But as I understand it, the system was created by missionaries and the usage was by no means universal. Neither the Japanese nor ROC proposed an alternative writing system for the various non-official languages. In this light, their policies should be better understood as anti-dialects rather than anti-romanization. o (talk) 12:19, 13 October 2008 (UTC)