Talk:Ontario Highway 400

Proposed Interchanges

I have to question having a list of proposed interchanges along with exit numbers for the stretch of Highway 69 north of Parry Sound. I think its highly irrisponsible to simply assume exits and exit numbers for a highway that hasn't even had preliminary designs carried out. The MTO is only studying 4-laning highway 69, nothing more at this point. -149.99.27.2 00:26, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The section from Parry Sound to north of Nobel will soon be under construction and has a detailed route. From Nobel to Highway 522, a planned route has been made, and by adding the distance gets us through Exit 304. Beyond that point, they are simply guesses, since the only section with a detailed plan is from Estaire to Highway 17 (under construction) and that cannot be numbered until the plan is released. The exit numbers are simply assumptions - it says "exit numbers assumed". They could easily be changed once plans are available; that is the beauty of Wikipedia :)

No detailed route north of Highway 522 has been finalized. I don't believe they are even finished the public information sessions (PIC)s. And of course, even if they were done the PIC portion of the study that does not mean that construction is actually going to start. There are many cases when construction has actually been announced (which it hasn't in this case) and projects are delayed and re-evulated (hwy 7 near ottawa as a recent example). For the record I am not trying to be difficult, but I have a big problem with information being shown that isn't true and is based on assumptions. I understand that in this 'encyclopedia' information can be changed at a moments notice, however, this is an encyclopedia, and should be based solely on real information, not just oppinions or hearsay on what might be the case. --24.103.242.178 06:06, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Highway 522 to Highway 64: will be twinned (not realigned), according to the maps at the MTO site. CrazyC83 03:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Cause of plans to be shelved

I believe the cause of the shelving of the plans to extend the 400 in the 1970's was public resistance to the plan - the same reason that the eglinton ave. expressway wasn't built. I have a bulliten published by the MTO in the 1980's with the initial plans for the expansion from Highway 12 to Mactier which I will try to scan in at some point and post here. These plans were modified because of the indian land claim by the Whata Mohawks which incidentally are the same indian band as the Oka indians so famous for their standoff with the police over a decade ago.

Are you sure about the last part? The freeway is currently under construction in the Wahta Mohawk Reserve (km 179-187) and completed to Parry Sound otherwise. (Additional construction is currently underway from Bowes Street to north of Highway 124 - roughly km 225-232) CrazyC83 23:27, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

See Wahta Mohawk Territory, Ontario for more info. The claim was settled recently which has allowed construction to start.

Metric Speed Conversions

65 MPH is closer to 105KPH than 100 KPH. The speed limit was dropped slightly on metric conversion to conserve fuel. Blacknail 16:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

1951?

I was reading a document that stated the name of the highway was originally just the "Barrie Highway", which was completed in 1951. Is this a direct predecessor to Highway 400? Source: Bulletin #3: Roads, Tolls, Rails & Automobiles from City of Vaughan archives, Cultural Services Division. Mindmatrix 23:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The Toronto–Barrie Highway was planned beginning in 1945. It was renamed Controlled Access Highway no. 400 on July 1, 1952. Various laws and amendments to the legislature naming highways changed that to 'Provincial Highway 400' over time, though I cannot find these. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 17:58, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

518 interchange

This isn't the only interchange with a secondary road.

Highway 58 has an interchange with the 406 in St Catharines. This is a massive cloverleaf which also has the local beaverdams road running through it. Check it out on google earth. --Uncle Bungle 23:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe they are talking about a Secondary Highway, numbered in the 500-699 range. There are no secondary highways in Southern Ontario. Also, the 406/58/St. David's Road interchange is not a cloverleaf, nor is Beaverdams Road involved in this interchange. Snickerdo 03:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I mixed up Beaverdams and St. David's, and you're right, it's not a cloverleaf, actually, I don't know what you would call it. Do you? Thanks for clarifying the secondary highways rule too. Sat Photo --Uncle Bungle 04:30, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd call that interchange extremely complex, but efficient since it is indeed, FULL ACCESS to all directions involved. :) RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 21:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Design Bulletin

Here is the bulletin that I promised! Blacknail 23:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

File:Bulliten1.jpg

File:Bulliten2.jpg

File:Bulliten3.jpg

File:Bulletin4.jpg

Proposed Interchanges

I was checking out the proposed interchange section, and I noticed that Parry Sound Drive and Highway 124 were numbered as seperate exits. However, Google Maps shows that it's just one road that is marked as Highway 124 north of 69/400 and Parry Sound Drive south of the 69/400. Is there something that I'm missing? --Smoothtofu 00:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Slower Traffic Keep Right

I drive Highway 400 almost every weekend from the beginning of May, to mid October. I have seen this sign that reads "Slower Traffic Keep Right" at almost every entrance. The right lane is the one I always drive in, except when I'm going to pass another vehicle. I always signal in accordance with the Ontario Highway Traffic Act, if it's going to affect other traffic around me, and usually I signal anyway, because I like that same respect from other drivers too. More often than sometimes, other drivers like to speed up as soon as they see my turn signal, they like to pretend I can't see them. I like to use hand signals, they work better than lights. Whenever I pass other vehicles I always return to the right lane, unless I'm already in that lane when I pass. Often in the right lane, I seem to pass more traffic in the centre lane and sometimes the left lane. What I really hate is those motorists hauling the big boats up the long hills in the passing lane, they like to think they are sportsmen, but is that sportsmanship. W W 06:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Basket-Weave and speed limit

The article currently says:

The junction with Highway 401 (known locally as The Basket-weave) is one of the earliest multi-level interchanges built when Highway 401 was widened to a collector-express system in 1967. Because the speed limit on Ontario freeways was raised in 1968 from 90 km/h to 100 km/h (55 to 62 mph) it rendered this interchange obsolete shortly after its completion.

First, I have always understood The Basket-Weave to refer not to the 400/401 interchange, but to the express/collector crossovers near there on highway 401.

Second, the speed limit reference is definitely wrong. The speed limit on the 400-series highways was 60 mph when I moved to Ontario in 1964 (I've read that at some earlier time it was 50 mph), then 70 mph (but still 60 for trucks), then 60 mph again, and only then came the metric conversion to 100 km/h. 1968 sounds right for the year when the limit was raised to 70, with the other two changes following in the mid-1970s. This is from memory, but I'm very sure.

Third, raising the speed limit does not make an interchange obsolete. Most interchanges involve speed restrictions on curved ramps.

207.176.159.90 23:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Extension of Highway 400, and its RIRO Entrances.

I've been doing some reading and researching on Highway 400's new upgrades, and i'd like to clarify a few things for it. Highway 400 has a few TEMPORARY RIRO entrances, but they are most likely temporary.

The articles i've used are:

• 2008 Rand McNally Deluxe Ontario Road Atlas
• Google Earth v4.2 for Windows XP

Highway notes: Highway 69 is shown in the 2008 Rand McNally atlas as travelling from a trumpet interchange (Exit 189), west to Foot's Bay, then past Gordon Bay, meeting up with Highway 141 at Parry Sound Airport, though Google Earth indicates that Highway 141 passes Horseshoe Lake and meets Highway 400 at Exit 213.

Heading north from Port Severn, Ontario: Note: most of these entrances are on the west side (southbound carriageway).

• Rock Quarry, 2 km south of South Bay Road (Road 48). RIRO with southbound carriageway.'
• Hidden Glen Road, 2 km north of Joe King Road (Hidden Glen Road leads west to cottages and boat launches). RIRO with southbound carriageway
• Heather path Trail: 500 meters south of South Gibson Lake Road (Road 33) trumpet interchange (Exit 174). RIRO with southbound carriageway.
• Global Tower Road: 1 km north of South Gibson Lake Road (Exit 174). Note: the 2008 Rand McNally atlas shows Global Tower Road being re-aligned, following along the west side of Highway 400 to meet South Gibson Lake Road at a full interchange. RIRO with southbound carriageway.
• Go Home Lake Road former alignment: 250-500 meters north of new extension to Road 38 (full interchange with Highway 400). Go Home Lake is newly-designated Road 32).
• Also easily visible from highway: former Highway 69 alignment, branches off for 1 km)
• Musquash River:
• A alrge building is located on the northern shore of the river, with a driveway to the northbound carriageway. Google Earth shows trees have been cleared in a path to access this building.
• It also appears there is a third bridge being built across the Musquash River. The north-bound bridge is somewhat out-of alignment and very far from the southbound bridge, with room for a third in between. Google Earth shows footings for a bridge that is either going to be built, or is already under construction. This new bridge is in place between the open northbound carriage, and the under-construction southbound carriageway. This middle bridge may end up being the new northbound carriageway, with the current road becoming a service road for access to cottages and other roads.
• Wahta Road: 500 meters north of Musquash River. Google Earth shows a basic diamond interchange being built here with extension of Wahta Road going under the new (southbound) Highway 400 carriageway. It is assumed it will go under the northbound carriageway as well. Extended north along west side of Highway 400, as a link to 12 Mile Bay Road (Road 12). Trees have also been cleared for an interchange ramp, and to meet to a new road to travel to the building mentioned previously, and to Indian Reserve of Gibson Road. On the other side of the freeway, a resource road has been built to a quarry that previously had access only to Highway 400's carriageways. This access has since been removed with the opening of this new resource road.
• Indian Reserve of Gibson Road: 500 Meters north of Wahta Road intersection/interchange: currently RIRO with what appears to be left-turn access to and from southbound carriageway. Trees have been cleared just east of the northbound carriageway to what is assumed to be the interchange with Wahta Road. This road leads to the Gibson Cranberry Bogs, and to Road 38 (east side).
• 3 or 4 houses are located 3 km north of Indian Reserve of Gibson Road, and 100 meters south of new interchange with 12 Mile Bay Road (Road 12). Google Earth shows this road as going under the new (southbound) carriageway. It is assumed it will also go under the northbound carriageway, and probably curve south to serve those houses that currently face the northbound carrigeway.
• 12 Mile Bay Road (Road 12): basic diamond interchange being built at former intersection with Highway 400. Snowmobile Trail Road being extended along part of 12 Mile Bay Road's alignment to meet its new extension that takes it to Wahta Road.
• Moon River Road: RIRO interchange with southbound carriageway and what appears to be left-turn access to north-bound carriageway. Appears to also go UNDER the Highway 400/Moon River bridges. This road also leads west towards other roads, such as Jenkin's Lake Road, Tower Road (no relation to Global Tower Road), and Gooley Lake Road.
• Pitt Road (2.5 km north of Moon River bridges): RIRO entrances on right and left of freeway. Pitt Road leads to a giant rock quarry, very close to Silver Sands Lake Road. It could theoretically go through the forest to meet Silver Sands Lake Road.
• New Highway 69 trumpet interchange. former alignment straight from the northbound carriageway to the new Higwhay 69 can easily be seen.
• Tower Road (1 km north of Highway 69 trumpet interchange): travels under Highway 400, and west, to meet Jenkin's Lake Road, Gooley Lake Road, and ultimately, Moon River Road.
• 500 meters south of the CP Rail overhead appears to be a paved biking or snowmobile overpass over the freeway, which curves around, crosses the rail line (at-grade), and follows alogn the eastern side of Highway 400.
• 2 KM from CP Rail overhead: Lawson Bay Road travels under Highway 400
• 250 meters from Lawson Bay Road tunnel: CN Rail travels under Highway 400.
• 500 meters from CN Rail tunnel: interchange with Airport Road (Exit 207). Airport Road is shown as Highway 141 in Rand McNally 2008 road atlas.

I was thinking, if this information is relevant, then should it be added to the article? and if so, how should it be done? —Preceding unsigned comment added by RingtailedFox (talk • contribs) 21:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 22:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not really important, but we'd put these intersections in the exit list and put "At-grade intersection" in the notes (linking the first case of at-grade since it is a technical term) - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 16:35, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Refs

Craighurst -> Coldwater (1956)[1]

-- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 16:54, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Eight lanes to Barrie

Replacing structures to accommodate 8 lanes northwards to Barrie is referenced in this article. Are there any facts to support this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.227.142 (talk) 01:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

On top of the HOV lanes being constructed now, which will run through King, there is this source.[2] According to it, the province has already initiated the process. The 2010 report also mentions new construction between Toronto and Barrie, though it doesn't specify what exactly. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 02:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

400/407 four-level stack

The statement "The 400/407 junction is the only four-level stack interchange in Ontario" I'm not sure is accurate given that 410/401 junction also seems to have 4 levels as part of that exchange. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.2.4 (talk) 04:03, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

It may be 4 levels but it's not a 4 level stack interchange. A true diamond stack interchange looks like this: [3] Also see stack interchange for more info. Haljackey (talk) 06:24, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The other caveat is that stacks have unimpeded freeway to freeway ramps in all directions. There is no access from eastbound 403 to westbound 401 or from eastbound 401 to westbound 403. Same caveat that keeps the QEW/427/Gardiner interchange from being considered a stack. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 15:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

But there is access from 403 to westbound 401 and from the eastbound 401 to westbound 403... they're just over in Woodstock lol. The QEW/427/Gardiner one is more like a 3-way interchange with local connections, no a 4-way junction since the 427 ends just south of here. Haljackey (talk) 15:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Some links for my reference for Parry Sound area

• http://web.archive.org/web/20001018151137/http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/highway69/status.htm
• Two new projects, a 26.5 km section from Tower Road near MacTier to 2.7 km north of Highway 141 and a 4 km section from 2.7 km north of Highway 141 to Badger Road (south of Parry Sound) were announced on February 7, 2000
• http://web.archive.org/web/20031010150650/http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/highway69/limits.htm

-- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 21:20, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Parry Sound Bypass ($72 million) - November 1, 2001 [4]

4 km south of Parry Sound - October 2002 [5]

Mactier to 4 km south of Parry Sound - October 7, 2003 [6]

Plans confirmed June 28, 2005 [7]

-- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 16:25, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ontario Highway 400/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Grondemar (talk · contribs) 18:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

This article is close to achieving Good Article status, but I have a few concerns that need to be addressed first:

• Define acronyms as first usage: MTO. A wikilink might be appropriate as well.
• "As the Sudbury segment of the new highway is discontinuous with the Highway 400 route, it will not be renumbered until the remainder of the construction is completed."
• One or more citations are also needed in the Services section.
• File:400 Woodbridge.png: I'm leaning toward this file needing a fair-use rationale because it is copyrighted in the US (even if it is not copyrighted in Canada), but I've asked User:J Milburn for a second opinion on this.

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   I am placing this nomination on hold for a minimum of seven days to allow for the above concerns to be addressed.

Thanks. –Grondemar 19:03, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Should be able to get to these in a few hours, but just wanted to let you know that the image is public domain in the US as well. All government produced photos in Canada become public domain after 50 years in every country, as that is the official policy for their copyright (crown copyright). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 19:38, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Alright, all the others are fixed as well. I gave the services section an expansion using content from Highway 401, since both are seeing their service centres upgraded. Cheers! - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 22:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Concerning the image: If it is now unambiguously PD in Canada (and I think stronger sourcing/author information would be needed here- I am assuming you did not take the photograph, Floydian?) but was not PD in Canada on 1 January 1996, then it may still be used on Commons, provided it has that tag. However, this may end up changing, as this is very much an exception to the rule that media must be PD in the US and the source country for Commons. So, if those few points can be established, it's alright for now, but far from ideal. As an aside, moving the content to the English Wikipedia will not solve this problem. (IANAL, I am making no effort to interpret US law, about which I know little, only WP/Commons policy.) J Milburn (talk) 00:18, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I took the image from a Department of Highway annual report. Anything produced by provincial or federal government falls under crown copyright, which falls under the Copyright Act. Under section 12 of the Copyright Act, the term of Crown copyright is "the remainder of the calendar year of the first publication of the work and for a period of fifty years following the end of that calendar year". This means the government, as the copyright holder, explicitly releases the material into the public domain after 50 years. URAA conditions don't apply in this case, as the image is public domain in the United States too. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 00:54, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

According to the description page this photo was taken in 1951. If the term of copyright is to the end of the year it was taken and then 50 years, it wouldn't be in the public domain until the end of 2012 if I'm doing the math right. Unless I'm missing something, this image is still copyrighted and needs to be removed. –Grondemar 03:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Nope :) 2011-1951 is 60 years. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 05:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. You're exactly right. Thanks for addressing my concerns. I will now pass this Good Article Nomination. Congratulations! –Grondemar 06:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

To do

Still a few minor things that I /should/ have addressed before GAN, but... didn't.

• Recent construction section: Source for Vaughan interchanges
• Future: stuff on the current Federal delay.

-- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ ^τ _¢ 18:18, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

TPS/OPP jurisdiction south of the 401

I removed the sentence in the opening section claiming that the TPS has jurisdiction over patrolling the 1.6km section of the 400 south of the 401. It contained no citation. There was a fatal collision on July 4, 2015 on that section of the 400 at the Black Creek overpass (between Jane Street and Maple Leaf Drive) and the OPP were the lead on the scene. This is easily evidenced by media reports/broadcasts of that story (see google news). I think as a default it should be assumed that MTO owned highways are patrolled by the OPP, and if there are exceptions to this rule, there should be references provided before inclusion in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.116.148 (talk) 11:27, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Opening of Interchange 331 and twinned road further south; exit list and lead

I've added text to the interchange list noting the opening of interchange 331 at Highway 64. Looking at the map reference, the route is shown open and twinned even further south. Matching that to a recent satellite image at Google Maps and one gets the measurements I've included in that added text. Not sure if this is the best presentation, but welcome any refinement of the text. I believe the lead of the article should be updated as well. It says the highway is twinned as far as the Murdock River, but with the recent opening, the highway twinning has now reached two more interchanges and some 20 km further south. --papageno (talk) 02:34, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Lede and RD AND history need updating a lot. My only issue among everything is that I've set all Ontario highways to reference the (once up-to-date) provincial traffic volume data, which up until a few weeks ago was from 2010 (now 2012). It is difficult to rely on Google maps for distance data. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 22:11, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

To address the question I posed: we have both a MOT map and the satellite imagery, which is brand new Landsat 8 imagery just launched by Google. They correspond exactly. Since we're not looking for metre accuracy, I think that is sufficient. --papageno (talk) 17:58, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Onroute service centres

I was putting what tenants are available in which service centres have with sources added because it is suitable for this page to have. But Imzadi1979 reverted it for no reason at all. TTCTransportationFan4644 (talk) 03:44, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

We've generally avoided listing the businesses in these cases to avoid coming across as promoting them. It's also a maintenance nightmare as the various franchises come and go to make sure that they stay up to date. Imzadi 1979 → 04:12, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Imzadi1979, there's no need for a list of tenants. Mindmatrix 13:52, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Are you kids out of your minds? I CAN keep them up to date. And ALL of them are fully opened a while ago! TTCTransportationFan4644 (talk) 15:25, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Please be civil in discussions, and don't make assumptions about other editors (eg - 'kids'). In my opinion, the information you want to add is trivial and unencyclopedic, which is why I oppose its inclusion. Mindmatrix 17:09, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

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