Talk:Maxim gun

Claims seem overblown

SOme of the claims seem overblwown, cf Gatling gun, although it was clearly a marked improvement. Rich Farmbrough 13:01, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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not really, the gatling gun was just fairly good, cos even though it could fire lots of bullets, the gatling gun accuracy was strictly relative to the number of shots per second (the more shots, the more accurate it was and viceversa). one the other hand, the Maxin did not suffer such impediment, firing far more bullets than the gatling gun and with a much better accuracy than the gatling gun. The Maxim machinegun single handledly changed the whole scheme of warfare, before the maxim machine gun, the common tactic was to form all troops into positions and advance to the enemy, but since the maxim anihilated all formations, that tactic quickly died, thus changing the whole warfare strategy. The mechanism of the maxim also gave birth to modern guns, both automatic and semi-automatic guns. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.28.199.24 (talk • contribs) 01:14, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd suggest that the minie type self-obturating ball did for massed infantry formations before fully automatic weapons did - viz the War Between the States (or whatever you call the American Civil War), wherein repeating firearms were latecomers and sustained fire weapons (specifically the Gatling Gun) virtually a no-show, and yet demonstrated that minie-type rifled muskets could very handily anihilate a massed infantry formation. A lesson that was, arguably, not well learned in Europe, but there also small arms wreaked havoc in (for example) the Franco-Prussian war without the need for sustained fire weapons. 62.196.17.197 (talk) 17:04, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

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Actually, from reading , it appears that, while it took quite some time to develop and implement tactics to make the machine gun useful, these didn't really flower until the end of the 19th century, well after the Maxim appeared, and they were very nearly, if not just as, applicable to earlier machine guns such as the Gatling gun. Curt Sampson 2010-12-28

In the cause of pedantry, I'd point out that the Gatling is not technically a machine gun (being driven rather than automatic) but your point is essentially correct. 62.196.17.197 (talk) 17:07, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

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— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjs (talk • contribs) 19:55, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

"Trials showed it could fire 500 rounds per minute, equivalent to the firepower of about 100 contemporary bolt-action rifles." -- This statement appears to claim that a contemporary bolt-action rifle would only fire five rounds a minute. The basic gunnery rate with [i]muzzle-loaders[/i] was reckoned to be between three and five rounds a minute; one of the reasons bolt-action magazine-loaded weapons caught on was that they were so much faster than muzzle-loaders. The Lee-Enfield, for example, was reckoned to be able to do between 15 and 30 rounds a minute. Which is a lot more than five. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.15.231.112 (talk • contribs) 10:23, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

May be looking at sustained rate, which would allow for riflemen having to change magazines etc., but still needs citations. 62.196.17.197 (talk) 17:04, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

References

Hillaire Belloc

put in a well-known jingle by Hillaire Belloc,

Whatever happens, we have got

The Maxim gun, and they have not.

This is not the well-known jingle I had heard before. So I did a quick google and found a source for the version I had heard:

Early 20th century British poet Hilaire Belloc summed this up in a short stanza, he said: "We shall not fear the Hottentot because we have the Maxim gun and he has not."(NATO speeches: Video Interview with Chris Donnelly, Special Advisor to the Secretary General for Central and Eastern Europe )

I found another reference that says the version in Wikipedia came from Hilaire Belloc's "The Modern Traveller", so perhapse he wrote two versions or the version given in the article is a bowdlerise version. It would be useful if the source were to be confirmed. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

"Modern Traveller"

A Mutiny resulted.

I never shall forget the way

That Blood upon this awful day

Preserved us all from death.

He stood upon a little mound,

Cast his lethargic eyes around,

And said beneath his breath :

Whatever happens we have got

The Maxim Gun, and they have not."

He marked them in their rude advance,

He hushed their rebel cheers ;

With one extremely vulgar glance

He broke the Mutineers.

( from http://ia300117.us.archive.org/3/items/moderntraveller00belluoft/moderntraveller00belluoft_djvu.txt )

11:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Contradictions within Maxim Gun and Maschinegewehr 08 (sp) articles

Maschinegewehr 08 article lists 1884 as the year of Maxim Gun's invention, Maxim Gun article lists 1885. Also, MG 08 article references Maxim Gun as being water-cooled, but Maxim Gun article does not list such and there appears to be no water jacket on the Maxim Gun.

Hiram Maxim demonstrated his first *perfect* prototype to the public in october 1884. He applied for the first patents related to the weapon already in June 1883 (McCallum, 1999, p.46). But the weapon was by no means "a final invention" by its first patent or first prototype. There were several prototypes, and many different designs. There were many patents, in 1883-1884 and during the following years, as Maxim was quite a keen patent applicant. For more, see McCallum, 1999 and Dolf F.Goldsmith's work. --MortenB 13:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

PS : The first Maxims were indeed water-cooled. See this image, which more clearly shows the water jackets around the barrel.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Morten Blaabjerg (talk • contribs) 13:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

[EDIT : Maxim applied for the first Maxim Gun-related patents already in 1883. --MortenB 12:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC). Added link to image showing more clearly the water cooling of the gun. --MortenB 23:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC)]

Chamberings?

Would a listing of all the different chamberings be of benefit? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.118.72.9 (talk • contribs) .

Do you have a good source for such a list ? It must be a big list. Megapixie 01:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Not handy at the moment, but could certainly do some research. Yes, it would be on the lengthy side.

Did some research. There were a lot of them. Not sure such a list would help the article much.

British adoption of the Maxim?

The article states :

The weapon was finally adopted, under the guidance of Sir Garnet Wolseley, by the British Army in 1888 - using the same .577/450 ammunition as their Martini-Henry rifles.

Anyone got a source for the year 1888 and Wolseleys involvement? --MortenB 13:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC) (I am embarrassed, if it turns out it was my own contribution and I forgot the source).

Never mind, figured it out. Turns out McCallum mentions this connection on p. 67 of his Maxim biography. --MortenB 15:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, something's not quite right. This article cites Wolseley taking over as Army CinC in 1888, while this one has it as 1 November 1895 (para 3). --Mikepeat (talk) 13:33, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

Devil's Paintbrush

I seem to remember some ppl calling this gun the "Devil's Paintbrush" due it having a firing rate of 666 rpm. Now, I know that all cyclic rates of fire are purely an average and cannot be estimated down to the first decimal place, but I'd like to know who said this and when. PowderedToastMan 09:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

90 percent?

"On the Western Front, 90 percent of bullet-related casualties were inflicted by "Maxim-type guns"[citation needed]." This one seems insane. It probably means that 90 percent of fired bullets were shot from machine guns. Until we have some extremely reliable source to the "90 percent of casualties" claim I'm removing it. Wikinist 13:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Meaningless rate of fire info

The article says "Maxim could fire 600 rounds per minute, equivalent to the firepower of about 30 contemporary breech-loading bolt-action rifles". Firstly, that claim is not referenced. Secondly, it is unlikely that 30 rifleman could average a rate of fire of one round every three seconds (remembering also that they had to reload/change magazines). Thirdly, even if they did, they would hardly have been employing the full efficiency of the weapon. Try it some time, by firing at a target. Fire, reload, sight your weapon, fire, reload, sight your weapon, fire etc. I'll bet your score is nowhere near what you expected. Imagine doing this where you are under extreme mental and physical pressure because people out there are aiming guns at you! The info in the article might be a nice theory but is in reality quite meaningless. Away with it. 222.153.65.1 (talk) 21:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed. 24.15.88.9 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Content disputed

I have proposed modifying the text:

The Maxim gun was the first self-powered machine gun, invented by the American-born Briton Sir Hiram Maxim in 1884.

to read:

The Maxim gun was the first self-powered machine gun, invented by the American-born Briton Sir Hiram Stevens Maxim in 1884.

References

This edit disambiguates one Hiram Maxim from the other and it clarifies the father's invention from the son's. This saves a reader several clicks and informs that there were two Hiram Maxims credited with invention of guns or gun-related objects. Another editor, in good faith, User talk:Nukes4Tots, disagrees that this edit provides additional clarification as shown on that user's talk page. Therefore, a third opinion on this dispute has been requested. Newportm (talk) 16:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm tired of this crap. What you proposed was not what you said. Here is the text that you proposed the first time:

"The Maxim gun was the first self-powered machine gun, invented by the American-born Briton Sir Hiram Stevens Maxim in 1884. The Maxim Silencer for small arms is an invention of his son, Hiram Percy Maxim."

Please represent what I said prior to asking for a third opinion. Lying about it isn't going to help your case. First, this is not the place for a disambiguation statement as the third opinion below seems to be explaining. Second, you're getting your knickers all bunched up over some precieved personal injury I've caused you and responding by lying about what I did or did not say. Please, assume good faith. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 22:51, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Third Opinion

Hiram Maxim already redirects to Hiram Stevens Maxim. Assuming WP:NC is being followed, this leads me to believe that Hiram the Elder is the better-known of the two and is the one most people are referring to when they say "Hiram Maxim" (assuming anyone actually says that). His page also disambiguates between him and his son, as is custom for pages describing people who share names with other encyclopedic folk.

IMO, either would be correct but Hiram Maxim is not wrong.Flakeloaf (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Development?

Not a major point, but Maxim decided to use recoil when he suffered a sore shoulder one day after an afternoon of shooting. Bigger men are more prone to this. He also copied the toggle-link mechanism from a Winchester '73. The toggle -link was admired by the Europeans, also having been used in the Borchardt and Luger pistols.Tintinteslacoil (talk) 12:39, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Maxim wczesny.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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"American-born British inventor"

Is this qualification required in this article? Obviously is it required on the article of the man himself but seems redundant here given the wikilink. The source provided also disambiguates him as "American inventor". The Britannica page for the gun states "developed by engineer and inventor Hiram Maxim in about 1884, while he was residing in England", which seems like it would be more appropriate here too. (Would also mean we can remove the ref in the lede) Just a thought I had while passing! Nikthestoned 16:25, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed and fixed. 24.15.88.9 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:49, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree. He was an Inventor in the US (Self-resetting mousetrap, light bulb improvements, possibly first powered flight, I think X-ray equipment improvements) before hew visited England. His son, Hiram Percy, stayed in the US and improved Radio equipment, invented the silencer, and started the ARRL. Maxim not only invented automatic gun, but recoil (short-recoil) and belt feed systems. He needs more credit. He was a big man, the recoil of shooting one day gave him a sore shoulder--and, a clue. Why not harness that wasted energy? Also, his prototype used a '74 Winchester , similar to Browning. Recoil pushed a moving butt plate to a link to the finger lever. Maxim far precedented Browning (whom I think plaguerized the belt feed/short recoil--his first were gas-operated to deliberately circumvent patents), and admired the Winchester's toggle-link, he preserved that in his designs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.1.173.46 (talk) 12:59, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

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I suggest the Mexican Revolution of 1910-'20 be included under Wars as many German Model '08 Maxims were used, sold by Germany to both Federalist and Revolutionary forces. 174.18.14.245 (talk) 01:37, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Also. the dry weight of a Maxim may be 65 lbs, but the a 1910 Russian I shot weighed 85 with cooling jacket full. With cooling water is a practical weight, as it cannot be fired long long without it.174.18.14.245 (talk) 01:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Historic film clip

Might this[1] film clip be used in the article?SovalValtos (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Service history

Considering how the maxim gun sees current use by the Ukrainian Ground Forces in the Donbas war, should the service history be updated from 1959 to present to account for this?

Benjideaula (talk) 10:45, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Even further, I've seen pictures of a Maxim gun mounted on a small trailer in use by Russian forces. I would update the article to display its use in the Russo-Ukrainian War as a whole. 75.110.152.26 (talk) 01:19, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

References