Talk:Ukrainian People's Republic

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Move to Ukrainian National Republic[edit]

Would anyone object to moving this article to Ukrainian National Republic? To me, Нарід (Narid) seems more literally nation, although a people is also an acceptable translation. National also seems more evocative of its identity in contrast to the Bolshevik revolution, while People's Republic is more popularly reminiscent of communist regimes in the 20th century.

Народ, not Нарід.UeArtemis (talk) 15:19, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just starting to read up on the history of the UNR/UPR, so any insight is welcome. —Michael Z. 19:12, 2005 Jan 15 (UTC)

It looks like the "national" name is more widespraad,, and its abbreviation matches with the ukrainian: UNR == УНР. However the "people's" would be a better translation of the idea of the republic of "common people". The word "nation" doesn't bear this flavor. Mikkalai 22:08, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

By the way, do I understand you correctly that you are going to write the article? I realize that the stub I created sucks horribly. I made it for the sole purpose to collect the red links from different names into one place.

If you will, then I will not edit it now. Mikkalai 22:08, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have the impression that National is more widely used, but suspect that's partly due to diaspora writers' and publishers' politics. On the other hand, UNR is conveniently bilingual.
I'm planning to get familiar with this part of Ukrainian history that I mostly ignored in school, and eventually fill out the relevant articles a bit. I'm in no rush, and glad to learn from Wikipedia, so go ahead and edit as much as you like. —Michael Z. 00:17, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind at all. In Polish both translations are equally popular, with the People's version being only slightly more popular than the rest. However, there's also a plethora of serious publications that use only the abbreviation or some Polish transcryption of the Ukrainian name, which is also quite widespread. Halibutt 02:56, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
I prefer People's Republic. My use of narid has more to with the people, the folk/volk. I agree it has been mistranslated by the diaspora, and as for transliterating the acronyms, I don't think that should be high on the list of priorities. Better to get across the spirit of the words to the non-slavic-speaking folks.--tufkaa 22:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are we sure it's People's? I have a copy from the Ukrainian Press Service, on behalf of the Foreign Representation of the Supreme Ukrainian Liberation Council (1948) here that says clearly it was called the Ukrainian National Republic, formed Jan 22 1918. --Львівське (talk) 06:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined towards "People's" for Tufkaa's reasons. It would also match the UNR's leadership's left-wing ideology. Narid means people, and Natsia means nation, and it was Narodna rather than Natsionalna republic.Faustian (talk) 13:40, 16 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Britannica, and Magocsi both use National instead of People's. Is there a consensus among major RSs on this? I'd rather this not be original research based on translations. Above, Faustian suggests that Natsia means nation in the sense of a nation state, but narod means nation in the sense of a grouping of people. Motyl agrees with this translation (that narod means nation). Also, there's the primary source from the government in exile saying its National in English... --Львівське (говорити) 00:46, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    I see there has been a discussion from 2005 - 2014 regarding the name "Ukrainian National Republic" as a translation to "Украї́нська Наро́дна Респу́бліка (УНР)". I believe the "People's Republic of ..." is a common translation for the name "Наро́дна Респу́бліка". For example, the current name of the PRC in Ukrainian is "Народна Республіка Китай". The word "народна" is similar yet rather different than "national". The word "народ" is more like "people". There is a separate word for "national", which is "національний" (natsional'nyi). This translation is consistent with the names of historic "People's republics", for example the PR of Poland (in ukrainian: Польська Народна Республіка; in english: Polish People's Republic). NoN33d4UserNames (talk) 18:56, 31 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Needs expansion[edit]

Thanks for putting the expansion tag up, Irpen. I will write the rest, but it may be a few days. Cheers. —Michael Z. 2005-05-29 19:19 Z

Actually, I did not want to hit the article with the expansion tag. Any article in WP could use some expansion and we should use some discretion in deciding why would such a tag be placed. I am not aware of a policy on these, so I use my own "policy". My view is that if the article because substantial info is missing may mislead the reader into a wrong conclusion, we should tag it. If the misleading is caused by POV dispute, the POV tag applies. If this is just because it is incomplete, I place an expansion tag, like I did for the Cristianity article and UGCC article. This UPR article is NOT misleading even in current shape when it does not cover the entire history. So, the horisontal line you placed with a hidden comment was OK with me. But since it was edited out by another editor, I thought it is better to have an expansion tag than no sign at all. Regards, -Irpen 17:35, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

more on expansion[edit]

This article, even not yet covering an entire time period, is, as of now, one of the jewels on the Ukrainian history we have in WP, because it is written in consistensy, rather than thrown together from random thoughts of disconnected editors. We have a mess with Cossack times (although the Sich and Host article are good in themselves, but see the talk at Host for more). Actually, most of UA history as of now at WP is very unfinished because Michael can only do as much, and others (myself included) are even less committed and there are so few of us.

OK, after this lengthy intro here is my proposal. I think this article (even in its current unfinished form) is more than about UNR but about the period of History of UA between the break-up of the RU Empire and establishment of the Soviet Ukraine under Bolsheviks. Should we have the name reflect that? Or should we have another article devoted to history (which we can base on the current UNR article) and have several "mainarticles" (UNR, Hetmanate, Directoria). It's just similarly to impossibility to have separate decent articles on UPTs-KP and UPTs-MP, we can't really separate them. Yes, the name is the problem here. The History of Romania series, has an article called Communist Romania which speaks of the periond of Romanian People's Republic and Romanian Socialist Republic. Can we invent a name, that would fit for us? ANy other ideas? Thanks! --Irpen 05:17, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

My experience shows that it may be helpful to copy/merge some info into a given, larger article, then work it out to FA. I see several Ukrainian-related articles that could be FAed with some effort, like Cossacks and History of Cossacks. Regarding the interwar period, I'd suggest begining with History of Ukraine#The 20th century section, creating a subarticle and working your way from there. It would be good to agree on naming convention; I think dates are better then imaginastive names. At least this is the approach I used for History of Poland series - once it was 'Piast Poland', 'Noble's democracy', ect. now it is simply 'History of Poland (year - year)'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 09:07, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Not a bad idea for the name. So, that would be an article named History of Ukraine (1917 - 1922). I think that would work. As for Cossacks and History of Cossacks, pls check the recent talk at Talk:Zaporozhian Host#Disconnected material from the article, also re razing (massacre). Thanks! --Irpen 09:19, August 10, 2005 (UTC)
There is also an issue whether you want an article on history or on the former state - those are not the same. Thus the difference between Template:Polish statehood and Template:History of Poland. Or to be more specific, compare Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth with History of Poland (1569-1795) and People's Republic of Poland with History of Poland (1945-1989). Eventually, there will be separate series on economy, culture, geography etc. of those former states - at least, this is how I envision the development of Wiki articles in those series. You may want to look at Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland/Periodization for some related ideas. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:05, 10 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]
With regards to the newly created Ukrainian National Revolution (1917-1921), I guess that it is similar to the article proposed above. I do not agree with eliminating UPR because of its significance as an independent (albeit short-lived and flawed) state. As a matter of categorizing history, I agree with the statement that the period between the RU Empire and establishment of the YPCP would be better served as a subsection of History of Ukraine.--tufkaa 22:58, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, the History of UA needs to be divided into subarticles at some point. Check History of Poland or History of Russia. I started to expand the UA history article but I could use help. Let's discuss it! --Irpen 23:03, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pogroms[edit]

The entry Petlura discusses the problem. It was rather the problem of the country than of Petlura. It should be mentioned here. Xx236 13:05, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Map[edit]

It should be interesting to create or find a map of the Ukrainian People's Republic ! Bogatyr 11:56, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And if possible it ought to be a map with English place names. The current map with Russian of Ukrainian names is not helpful on the English page. Hskoppek (talk) 17:20, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other corrections[edit]

"As the result, the lands of Galicia (Halychyna), the western part of the traditional territory of Ukraine, as well as a large part of the Volyn territory had been incorporated into Poland, while the larger central parts of traditional Ukrainian territory, as well as predominantly Russian eastern and southern areas became part of Soviet Ukraine."

Prior to 1940-1950's eastern and southern areas of Ukraine didn't have significant russian presence. Migration of russians started after holodomor and more after the end of WW2.

The significant migration of the Russian population started after the anihilation of the Zaporizhian Sich during the so called "colonization of the New Russia". Besides the migration people from all of the corners of the Empire had to serve in the Russian Army. Gogol who was born in Ukraine all of a sudden became the famous Russian writer. The arguement is that he was born in the Russian Empire not the Ukrainian. No, brother, you're dead wrong on that. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 03:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Exile[edit]

I believe that we should mention the Ukrainian People's Republic in exhile.. and its related history. Should we create a new article Ukrainian People's Republic in exhile or just introduce the information here? I would rather have it here as its about the same entity only different status.. —dima/talk/ 21:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would be good to have it here. I was just reading about the subject and decided to check the talk page if it was mentioned before. Sure enough. — Alex(U|C|E) 03:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Army[edit]

I can find one page on the Sich Riflemen but no general page on the Army of the Ukrainian People's/National Republic. If it does exist, can the appropriate links be added to this article? If it does not exist, can anyone suggest the best way to start it? Jacob Haller 23:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly an interesting topic to write about. Army of the Ukrainian People's Republic...-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  23:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rada signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk???[edit]

Say what? Who wrote this xxxx? I thought Lenin signed it (or rather Trotsky). "The treaty, signed between Bolshevik Russia on the one side and the German Empire, Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria and Ottoman Empire (collectively the Central Powers) on the other" check it here [1] "Rada signed treaty." Rada might have signed one, but not the one of Brest-Litovsk. Aleksandr Grigoryev 01:40, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ukranian Tsentral Rada signed a peace treaty in Brest Febrary 9th, 1918. The Brest-Litovsk treaty was signed March 3th, 1918. After German-Ukranian peace treaty, germans conquered Kiev from soviets.--84.76.41.127 (talk) 16:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proper Flag[edit]

I think the flag that is currently displayed is inverted. The navigation icon to the page has it right side up, so I think it is upside down, although I am no expert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.35.112 (talk) 22:16, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is everyone sure that the official flag of UPR was not this one?

I second the fact that the currently used flag is WRONG. The flag symbolizes a wheat field under a blue sky (Ukraine was long considered to be Europe's breadbasket), the yellow being the wheat field and the blue being the sky, and having the blue under the yellow makes no sense at all. 24.83.195.130 (talk) 10:33, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it's very weird one. I wonder if it symbolizes anything as well. Maybe the Black See? Is there any references about this flag?Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 01:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To the best of my knowledge, both of the flags were used for the UPR. —dima/talk/ 01:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is the way it's usually explained nowadays. Whether that is in fact a fact - who knows. Could be a nice folk tale, nothing more. 174.118.34.7 (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox[edit]

Ukrainian People's (National) Republic was created within the Russian territory. Why is West Ukraine being shown as its predecessor? West Ukraine appeared in late 1918's and united with the bigger Ukraine in early 1919 when practically was defeated.

How is Slovakia part of the Dnieper Ukraine? What about Moldova? Why is that country not mentioned, but Slovakia is? Why is Odessa Soviet Republic is not mentioned and all the other crazy and quasi-states, like DKSR and Halych Soviet Republic? What about the Denikins Territory? Makhnovishchyna was not even a state. There were many similar territories like that in Ukraine at that time: near Kiev - Otaman Zeleny, Kirovohrad and Kherson - Otaman Grigoriev. Is Makhno any special or what?


Also, constituent assembly has never taken place. Why to claim it as an actual legislature?

Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 23:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The western republic preceded it since the country was officially founded when they united (kind of a rebirth). --Львівське (говорити) 00:51, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Typo[edit]

"which esulted in many casualties". Here's an r missing. --Thathánka Íyotake (talk) 02:32, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:23, 15 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dates Differ Between Articles[edit]

This article indicates June 10, 1917 as the start of the republic, but the Ukraine article linking to this article indicates June 23, 1917. Does anyone know why the difference? The confusion wouldn't have anything to do with the switch of the Gregorian calendar, does it?. This is interesting to me on a personal level because I have a relative who was born on June 10, 1917 in Charkow. Tesseract501 (talk) 16:05, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Formation[edit]

The first sentence states that the People's Republic of Ukraine “...was declared on 10 June 1917 following the February Revolution in Russia.” The infobox, however, gives 7 November 1917 as the date of the founding of the People's Republic, the same day as the October Revolution. So when was the formation of the People's Republic of Ukraine, 10 June or 7 November of 1917? (The Professor (Time Lord) (talk) 08:05, 7 June 2019 (UTC))[reply]

We need better map for UPR[edit]

This page is lacking a proper digital map. Previously used map ([2]) showed territories claimed by the state on Paris Peace Conference (1919–1920) and not lands that were under Ukrainian control. Map used right now (file) shows actual (for the best of my knowledge) borders of UPR but its just a scan of old map (additionally in not the finest condition). Maybe somebody would be capable of providing better digitised map of actually controled lands of UPR? (Category:Maps of the Ukrainian People's Republic on Wikimedia Commons). Maybe we could do something based on [3] of Europe by changing a few borders and adding UPR. TheEditMate (talk) 21:13, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@TheEditMate: Could you change back to the 1918 map again. Somebody has changed the map to show territories claimed by Ukraine at the Paris Peace conference --Aaron106 (talk) 03:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I propose restoring Yuri V.s edit on October 8 which uses this authentical map. We have had a lot of people mistakenly adding the Paris Peace conference borders which includes the Kuban region that has been happening for a while now. --Aaron106 (talk) 23:03, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In 1992, two days before the first anniversary of post-Soviet Ukraine, President-in-exile Plaviuk resigned, recognizing the new government a legal successor to the UNR and handing over his authorities to President Kravchuk.[edit]

Actually, the source cited in this article (Talmon) says that the states that previously recognized UNP ceased the recognition of its government-in-exile after they recognized the Soviet Government. Therefore, it would be incorrect to speak about any resignation of Plaviuk, because he was not recognized by anybody as having any authority (the analogy with Baltic states in not working here). I am going to remove this statement from the lead as not significant.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:57, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:29, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 March 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 00:49, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian People's Republic → Ukrainian National Republic – The meaning of "народний" in the Ukrainian language at that time was a synonym to "national", just as "народ" meant "nation", while for "people" the word "люд" was used. Mykhailo Hrushevsky, a historian and of the most prominent leaders of the Ukrainian National Republic, separated these terms by using such formulations: "трудового українського люду" ("working Ukrainian people"), "нашого трудящого люду" ("our working people"), but "дати українському народові бажаний мир" ("to give the Ukrainian nation the desired peace").[1]

In foreign press and literature of the XX century, it was largely referred to as Ukrainian National Republic.[2] It is also listed under that name in Britannica[3] and the Encyclopedia of Ukraine[4]. EricLewan (talk) 11:24, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • weak oppose 'нарід' and 'люди' don't map neatly onto 'nation' and 'people'. while there is a case to be made for 'Ukrainian national republic' on the basis of acronyms 'Ukrainian People's Republic' is still slightly more common in scholarship (~1900 to ~1600 hits on google scholar [4] [5])—blindlynx 15:23, 20 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per blindlynx. Also worth mentioning that the Ukrainian language does already have an unambiguous word for "National" (Ukrainian: національна) that is distinct from "People's" (Ukrainian: Народної), hence why we have DABed Ukrainian National Army from Ukrainian People's Army per the original Ukrainian. --Grnrchst (talk) 12:00, 24 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose
  1. Some secondary sources including one not in the article yet (Plokhy, Serhii (2021). The Gates of Europe. New York: Basic Books. p. 207. ISBN 9781541675643.) call it by the current title.
  2. This isn't really about the translation of any one word, but rather the phrase uk:Народна республіка, which links to English People's republic. There is no article about "national republics". The Українська Народна Республіка was part of the movement of WWI-era non-communist people's republics listed in that article, and in every language other than English it uncontroversially has the same title as all the other people's republics. Considering this, one wonders why it stands alone as the world's only English-specific "national republic".
Since the proposed title is not the established "common" or "well known" name in the sense of WP:TITLECON, that guideline favors the current title. Knr5 (talk) 16:58, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

  1. ^ https://zbruc.eu/node/86900
  2. ^ https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ukrainian+national+republic%22&tbm=bks&sxsrf=APq-WBsK2SjpRn5fy5hpMSX4x-AfV0QJBw:1647775014335&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1900,cd_max:1999&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2mJijyNT2AhXplYsKHQJxAxUQpwV6BAgFECM&biw=1523&bih=829&dpr=1
  3. ^ https://www.britannica.com/place/Ukrainian-National-Republic
  4. ^ http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CU%5CK%5CUkrainianNationalRepublic.htm

Spelling mistake in Ukrainian name & romanization[edit]

The current name in the right-most country template is "Українська Народня Республіка", whereas it should be "Українська Народна Республіка". Respectively the "i" should be dropped from the transliteration: "Ukrayinska Narodna Respublika", or more accurately "Ukrayins'ka Narodna Respublika" (because the s is soft). NoN33d4UserNames (talk) 02:46, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While it is correct that the modern transliteration of UNR's full title would result in the "Народна/Narodna" spelling, the most common Orthography of the period spelled the word as "Народня/Narodnia". See, the 4th Universal of the Central Rada. DyvlusYaNaNebo98 (talk) 22:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Name of capital[edit]

Could the name of the capital of Ukraine here be updated to be Kyiv like the other pages? 166.62.226.9 (talk) 00:24, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:KYIV. Such changes from Kiev to Kyiv must be reverted. Mellk (talk) 19:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 June 2023[edit]

Rephrase the starting paragraph in regards to the territorial makeup: “(…)with a territory including the area of approximately eight Russian imperial governorates (Kiev, Volhynia, Kharkov, Kherson, Yekaterinoslav, Poltava, Chernigov and Podolia).” into “(…)with a territory including the area of approximately nine Russian imperial governorates (Kiev, Volhynia, Kharkov, Kherson, Yekaterinoslav, Poltava, Chernigov and Podolia, as well as approximately half of Taurida).” Other forms of phrasing could be “as well as Taurida, without the Crimean peninsula” or “as well as significant portion of Taurida” DyvlusYaNaNebo98 (talk) 15:20, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cocobb8 (💬 talk to me! • ✏️ my contributions) 21:20, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 September 2023[edit]

73.126.209.98 (talk) 02:06, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I want to change the anthem audio

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. upload your intended audio file to wikimedia if you have in mind one that isn't there already, link to it here and reopen the request then. Cannolis (talk) 02:13, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of citations and references[edit]

The entire introductory and history section has no citation. Is this fiction or history? Is there any proof that such a country existed as a de facto or de jure state? The only thing cited about “Hetman of Ukraine” needs quotation to verify. And why is an article with almost no references locked? Yasarhossain07 (talk) 02:10, 7 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup[edit]

A substantial amount of information in the article, often entire sections are completely unsourced. This has allowed the insertion of POV original research. I have marked the appropriate passages and sections with cleanup tags. Per WP:BURDEN and WP:V unsourced material may be removed at any time.

Maintenance tags, especially those regarding citations needed should never be removed, unless the issue is fixed, in this case adding proper sourcing.  // Timothy :: talk  13:49, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Color change of coat of arms and flag[edit]

The basis of the color change is one poster, which could be incorrect. Flag illustrations from around this time weren't known for being completely correct; you'll often see incorrect shades. I think more illustrations should be found with this same shade, otherwise I think it should be reverted to the original blue color. Cyberbug567 (talk) 22:41, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Change the letter “я» to “a” to “ Українська народн-A республіка»[edit]

Misdescription Daniel Rudnev (talk) 11:13, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done The spelling at the time was with a 'я'—blindlynx 21:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 April 2024[edit]

Change the names of the cities to Ukrainian transliteration: Kyiv, Kharkiv, etc.. Yosole (talk) 21:13, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 14:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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