Talk:Braintree, Massachusetts

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Hey all, I'm the WikiProject Cities assessor of this article. If feedback is what you want and need, come to my talk page and give me a holler! --Starstriker7(^{Dime algo}_{or see my works}) 15:37, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Someone else. Thanks for doing this stub on Braintree, Massachusetts. You know, I could have sworn there was such a place, but I searched the Wikipedia database when I started the Braintree disambiguation page, and couldn't find it, so I thought I must have just imagined hearing about it! Unfortunately, I'm a little confused by the stub... What do you mean by towns and/or cities being "split off" from it? Do you mean that it was divided up and parts of it were renamed? Is the main part of it still called "Braintree, Massachusetts", and if so, how did the Rambot manage to miss it...? (Okay, that last question isn't really aimed at you...) -- Oliver P. 20:08 Mar 24, 2003 (UTC)

In colonial times the town of Braintree consisted of the area occupied by present-day Braintree, Weymouth, Holbrook, Randolph, and Quincy. Quincy was I believe the part of Braintree owned by The Adams family (of John Adams and John Quincy Adams fame), and was made it's own town by the Adams', I think. I'm not sure why Weymouth and the others split off, but this type of thing isn't entirely uncommon in the older states.

Why was Gerard Coletta removed from the list of Notable Residents? As far as I know, Mark Wahlberg was neither born in Braintree nor lives there now. Several of those mentioned were born in Braintree, but are not current residents. Gerard is certainly one of the more famous current residents.

Because there's no Wikipedia article on him. I find that whether someone's notable enough to be the subject of a Wikipedia article is often a good guideline to whether they're notable enough to be listed under "Notable Residents" of a town. AJD 19:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Both Mark and Donald Wahlberg are still listed as current residents on Town of Braintree census data, listed under their parent's residence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.0.47 (talk) 01:49, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

That is an absolutely unfair criterion. Gerard Coletta is quite notable in the art community, which is not well-represented on Wikipedia. The sociology of Wikipedia promotes representations of certain communities over others. Therefore inclusion in Wikipedia is not a good metric by which to judge the notability of a given Braintree citizen. Leave it. Or thus begins the Lion War.

Why not create a Wikipedia article on Gerard Coletta, and let the community decide whether he's notable enough for inclusion? AJD 18:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

== What is the Difference Between "Officially" and "Massachusetts law?"

The article states that Braintree is officially a town but is considered a city under Massachusetts law. This suggests that Massachusetts law is not official in Massachusetts. Really? I think this requires clarification.71.223.67.114 (talk) 13:58, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

City of Town of Braintree

Now that I've the time, I want to start a discussion on editing re: the status of the Town of Braintree as a city:
1) I changed "city" to "suburban community" per the official website[1] and "town" per the Secretary of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts[2], as well as removing the term "city" from mayor-council government. (diff)(diff)(diff)
2) Despite having met WP:BURDEN of WP:VERIFY, edits were reverted and sources were removed. (diff)
3) I re-added the deleted information and sources, reiterating the that the information had met guidelines, and requested that reverting editor seek consensus via talk here. (diff)
4) This request for consensus was ignored and the article was edited again with the woefully inadequate, perhaps disingenuous, summary "reword". (diff)

a) Alternate sources were added, but may represent more original research than reliable sources. The article now reads "Although officially known as a town, Braintree adopted a home rule charter, effective 2008, with a mayor-council form of government and is considered a city under Massachusetts law."

b) The sources cited are the town charter, which makes no use of the term "city"[3], and a table used by a non-governmental non-profit organization[4]. This latter source may be questionable.

i) It is not an official source from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts[5], which governs and establishes the legal status of such municipalities.

ii) It purports to list cities in Massachusetts but does not include Franklin, Massachusetts, which is considered a city by the Secretary of the Commonwealth.

c) The logic seems to be that the particular form of government makes Braintree a city based on two sources, one of which does not use the term "city" and the other of which is questionable, in spite of a newspaper article covering the governmental structure change that still refers to Braintree as a town[6], which was removed, and the Secretary of the Commonwealth, which was also removed.

d) If such OR is to be used, one should also note that Braintree defines itself as "suburban" per its official website (outside a city) and that the city Wikipedia article refers a high population density that Braintree lacks.

Removing sources and not using the talk page may border on inappropriate behavior to push a POV, regardless of its truth (again, see WP:VERIFY). If the editor(s) who wish to show cause as to why this article should read "city" can do so, the burden of proof can be met, but reliable sources favor use of the verifiable term "town" at present, regardless of truth. --King of the Arverni (talk) 18:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Braintree has a city form of government (i.e. it does not use a town meeting form of government). That is all that is required to be considered a city under Mass. law. It is true that it officially calls itself a town. It is one of 11 such communities to do so. MassGIS data refers to such entities as "towns with a city form of government". You will note that the CIS document you use as a reference is dated 2003 and does not include changes in form of government that are more recent. You will also note that the CIS document says Greenfield, Easthampton, and Methuen call themselves towns. This is no longer true as these three municipalities now call themselves cities. The bottom line is the CIS document is outdated and the MMA document is the most recent semi-official list. Braintree aproved its new charter stating it has a mayor-council form of government in early 2006 with an effective date of 1/1/2008. Any municipality with a mayor-council or council-manager form of government is classified as a city under Mass. law. You also say that the MMA document does not include Franklin. It actually does in the section on council-manager form of government together with Barnstable, Cambridge, et al. The only question is then, does Braintree have a town form (OTM or RTM) or a city form of government (mayor-council or council-manager)? If it has a city form, the current convention is to classify it as a city. I have no problem with completely referring to Braintree as just a town, but you would have to change the 10 other municipalities that have city forms of government but call themselves towns. As it is, Braintree would be the only exception. --Polaron | Talk 20:22, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate your comments, Polaron. I'm glad that you pointed out Franklin at the MMA (I used a find within each document, but seems I forgot to do so with that one...) and you're especially right that we need better standardization. I also realize that the Secretary of the Commonwealth information is dated -- it was updated in 2005, actually, not 2003. Regardless of the fact that it's dated, I still haven't seen the sources to establish that having a certain form of government determines the definition. For example, I lived for several years in a PA town, not a city, that had a mayor, so it's obviously not a U.S. standard, but yours are still widely-used statements without any verification (claims about definitions "under Massachusetts law" are still uncited despite the burden) that really aren't considered common knowledge. I can't stress the importance of this verifiability enough. As I've said, I'll be totally "on board" if someone can find sources to verify your legal statements because this is a just as much a matter of verifiability as it is of common understanding, if not more so -- I'd like nothing more than to see your statements supported by evidence, Polaron! If you live in Mass., perhaps you can write the Secretary or something and request that the office update the guide (I'm honestly quite ashamed that it's dated 2005). Now, since the Patriot Ledger referred to Braintree as a town in the article about the governmental structure[7], Braintree defines itself as suburban (generally "outside a city")[8], the Secretary of the Commonwealth has provided some official information (as outdated as census figures, I suppose)[9], and you can't provide a source for mayor+council=city (the charter doesn't establish that any more than it uses the word "city"[10]), it would be entirely equitable IMHO to say that "the Town of Braintree is a suburban community with a mayor-council form of government." It's a bit circumlocutory, but it'd work for me until someone can find sources for the legal assertions. What do you think, Polaron (and anyone else who'd like to weigh in, while still follow guidelines, of course)? I've seen the Secretary of the Commonwealth cited for several Mass. communities on Wikipedia, but we can go through them with a finer comb as you suggest. On a related note, Polaron, I'd discourage you from deleting sourced statements and using vague edit summaries that seem disingenuous; I'm glad that we're finally talking, because that stuff really breaks down one's understanding of good faith and tends to "fuel the fire" in content disputes. --King of the Arverni (talk) 01:14, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

My point is that the change you propose will affect 10 other municipality articles, a few list articles, a few templates, and several categories. Such a major change requires more outside comment. The fact that all references to Braintree is "town" is also true for the 10 other towns with city forms of government. --Polaron | Talk 02:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Also "suburban" doesn't have anything to do with municipality type. There are towns that are highly urbanized and there are cities with large rural areas. In this context, suburban probably means it's a suburb of a larger employment core. --Polaron | Talk 02:19, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

---

• The main reason, for which I do not have a citation, for distinguishing between a city and a town in Massachusetts, is that a CITY does not have to have its revisions to its bylaws approved by the Secretary of the Commonwealth, but all TOWNS do. This requires an inquiry to the Secretary of the Commonwealth to get the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court citations that they rely upon for their advisory opinions (or lack thereof) to various Municipalities. There are other procedural issues that cities may follow that towns may not. This is a big deal for municipal governmental processes and internal (to the Municipality) dispute resolution, so the cities known as "Town of ___" actually follow city procedures because of this, and that is why the Secretary of the Commonwealth defines the cities that call themselves "Town of ___" as cities.

• This is the best citation I can come up with at the moment. Establishment Dates and Forms of City governments. This document cites Mass General Laws Chapter 43 as the ruling form to follow for cities that refer to themselves as "Town of __" (Source page: Massachusetts Municipal Association)

• A few supplementary citations and quotations, starting with those found at Massachusetts_government#Form_of_government:_city_vs._town
  -- Yellowdesk (talk) 03:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

• "There are 301 towns and 50 cities+ and 14 Counties - There are twelve communities in Massachusetts which have applied for, and been granted, city forms of government, though they wish to be known as "the town of". They are: Agawam, Amesbury, Barnstable, Braintree, Easthampton, Franklin, Greenfield, Methuen, Southbridge, Watertown, West Springfield and Weymouth."

• "As of 2000, 71 municipalities had adopted home-rule charters under the Home Rule Amendment procedure, 13 operated under charters granted by Special Acts of the legislature passed before the Home Rule Amendment, and 19 operated under Special Acts pass after the Home Rule Amendment."

• For a complete list of the forms of government of all cities and towns, see 2005-06 Massachusetts Municipal Directory Massachusetts Municipal Association. pp178-181."

• "There is some misconception that these 11 communities must use an arcane reference "the City Known as the Town of X" as their legal name. How a municipality refers to itself is up to the community." The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court has ruled that what a municipality calls itself doesn’t matter: “It is the substance of the thing done, and not the name given to it, which controls”. Opinion of the Justices to the Senate, 229 Mass. 600 (Mass. 1918).

• This page of links to lists of municipalities, distinguishing their forms, and dates of change from town to city form , from the Municipal Association Department is surprisingly comprehensive.

• Access to the [http://www.mma.org/images/stories/Publications/mma_publictns_orderform.pdf 2008/2009 Massachusetts Municipal Association Directory (order form)

• Access to the Supreme Judicial Court decisions is mostly available on line. See Massachusetts Trial Court Law Libraries access page.

---

I really liked that first paragraph, Yellowdesk; fascinating. This really is some super interesting stuff. I found something that may be of use, and will probably satisfy my concerns about verifiability: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/gl-39-toc.htm. It's not official per se, but seems comprehensive and is hosted by mass.gov. You can see the breakdown between "city government" versus "town government" in the headings, though it doesn't offer much more distinction between the two than that. As I said time and again, all I need to satisfy WP:V is to see a source for the claims, but I shouldn't need to find it myself per WP:BURDEN. Well, I did anyway, and I'm for one all set with the city designation thanks to the nudge given by Yellowdesk and my own willingness to research. What's especially ironic is that this source is used for some of Massachusetts_government#Form_of_government:_city_vs._town. It's just a shame that Polaron, who obviously knows what he/she is talking about, couldn't produce it for some reason. Alright, guys: go nuts! :-) --King of the Arverni (talk) 14:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

• I have been on semi-hiatus from Wikipedia since the end of 2008, in part due to frustration regarding this very issue. The other reasons for my status primarily involve distaste for edit wars, which seem to evolve into nastiness and stances supported by charges of WP:LAWYER or WP:OWN between well-meaning, well-spoken and erudite people who become impudent, smarmy and intransigent people. So, I hope to stay out of this sort of sniping on this particular issue by offering links to what was discussed last summer regarding the Massachusetts city-town status issue and then summarizing my support for the current wording and citations.

Earlier discussions related to this discussion:

Template_talk:Massachusetts#List_of_cities_by_official_name – I produced a table showing the designations used by all of the 53 municipalities that are cities under Massachusetts law in support of changing the template that appears at the bottom of each page, which was at that time either incomplete or incorrect depending on a given point of view. I initially went for listing only places that call themselves cities, but was persuaded to change it to all places that are officially cities, in agreement with Markles (talk · contribs) who used the phrase "clear-cut distinction" to provide reason to the status of the template. This "clear-cut distinction" is the argument supported very strongly above by Yellowdesk.

Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Massachusetts#Changing_to_53_cities_and_298_towns – I announced the change to the members of the Massachusetts WikiProject, and it has not been challenged. However, there is still inconsistency among constituent pages of the project. I also stated that I would start editing other articles such as Administrative divisions of Massachusetts which are relevant to the template list of cities. However, I balked when I discovered multiple articles which cite the PDF from 10/21/05. The mass.gov website for the Secretary of the Commonwealth still does not accurately reflect the most recent status of the cities and towns, and I could not find anything better than the MMA publication to support my change.

Given my experience with past discussions, reverts and arguing, I decided to let the issue wait until something official was posted by the state. It hasn't been; in fact, the CIS page cited by King above uses the old wording from the PDF, i.e. 50 cities and 301 towns, but added Braintree to the list of "Town of" cities, with no mention of Palmer or Winthrop. I didn't and don't want to get mixed up in the inevitible squabbles among the residents of each city that is a town, or purists throughout the Commonwealth on either side, or even people from other places with their own opinions. The problem can be traced to Bill Galvin's very poor website. I think that using "municipality" and the accompanying citations and explanatory sentence is fine for now. What I am really keen on is consistency—there are 298 towns and 53 cities on the books, and I hope the project will be able to sort out revisions throughout its constituent articles. I am also pointing this discussion out to Markles, a government editor who is the founder of the Mass project. For comic relief(?), I know I'll catch grief for this, but: at least we don't live in New Jersey. Sswonk (talk) 00:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

UPDATE: Since posting the above comment, I have updated the List of municipalities in Massachusetts to include the table listing the official names in use by each municipality which uses the city form of government. Sswonk (talk) 13:15, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Neighborhoods and Landmarks

Braintree H.S. is NOT located in South Braintree, and should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.3.250.198 (talk) 17:06, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Notable residents

Should this section be re-organized? The current categorization of Notable Residents, featuring a subsection called "Modern Era" doesn't seem very helpful. Most communities that have more than handful of notable residents use categories such as

• Government and politics
• Entertainment (or media)
• Business
• Sports
• Other

Also, the characterization of Jeremy and Henry Adams as "original emigrants" might be better characterized as "early immigrants" to America. Just a thought.EdJF (talk) 17:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

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getting sq mi to show before km2?

Area

• Total	37.6 km2 (14.5 sq mi)
• Land	36.0 km2 (13.9 sq mi)
• Water	1.6 km2 (0.6 sq mi)

how can we change this so that the sq miles are shown first? just about every other city in the boston metro area has it so that sq miles are shown first, with km2 in parenthesis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blahtherr (talk • contribs) 03:35, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

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Braintree was not the birthplace of Abigail Adams. Weymouth was and Weymouth was never part of Braintree. (see article on Abigail Adams) Rufus Putnam was not associated with Braintree, but with New Braintree which is a very different place (see article on Rufus Putnam)24.233.69.96 (talk) 04:37, 24 April 2021 (UTC)