Talk:Caesar (title)

Untitled

What exactly does this sentence in the article mean:

In fact, in more recent history the word imperator came to replace the original meaning of imperator in Latin.

Pronunciation

Is it pronounced /'kаɪ zax/ or /'se zax/? SaintCahier (talk) 22:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Hard C. So the former. No exceptions. The "s" pronunciation is a boorish one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.193.188.215 (talk) 02:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Possible error

I believe this part is incorrect:

"Finnish: Keisari & Keisaritar Icelandic: Keisari & Keisarinna"

I think it should be "keisari & keisarinna" in Finnish, not in Icelandic. Finnish is my native language, and keisarinna is the Finnish word. Allthough the suffix -tar indicates the female gender in Finnish (ie. tarjoilija = waiter, tarjoilijatar= waitress), I believe it is never used with the word keisari, and it should be keisarinna instead of keisaritar.

misleading statement

this line in the article

The Tetrarchy was quickly abandoned as a system, and the previous system of Emperors and Emperors-designate was restored, both in the Latin-speaking West (caesar) and the Greek-speaking East (kaisar)

wrongfully suggested that 'caesar' is the roman way and 'kaisar' the greek way of pronouncing 'Caesar', but in fact the romans also pronounced it 'kaisar' and 'caesar', 'si-zer' in non dictionary phonetic spelling, is the modern pronunciation produced by pronouncing a latin word with Saxon-based phonetic rules. In short: according to modern english rules 'Caesar' is pronounced 'si-ser', but the Romans pronounced it 'kai-zar'.

Furthermore the article states that 'imperator' replaced 'caesar' as the title given to Emperors, but this is not the case for all countries. A good number of countries from the list mention in the article have no other word for emperor than the word mentioned in that list, all of which are Caesar derived, rather than Imperator derived.

Transcription of "Caesar" equivalents in other languages

The transcriptions of Caesar, particularly from Cyrillic-written languages, is slightly misleading: There is no difference between bulgarian tsar and Croation car, as Croatian c is always pronounced ts and transcribed as ц in Cyrillic writing. Also, Czar and Tsar are merely two different ways of transcribing the Russian word in an English text. The Russian word itself has not changed. Also adding the Hungarian word to the list. Philippe Magnabosco 14:30, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

ae vs. æ

Is it spelled Caesar or Cæsar? If it's the first one, are there any cases/countries in which it would be appropriate to be spelled Cæsar? --daunrealist 03:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's supposed to be that way all the time.Cameron Nedland 21:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The ligature is essentially the same as 'ae', but it became popular with Vulgar Latin. The Romans didn't use the ligature so I would say the former over the latter.

[From the article, Ligature.] "Both classical and present practice is to write the letters separately, but the ligature was used in medieval and early modern writings..." The 'Æ' form appears (to me, at least) to be a later development. I imagine Julius Caesar himself would have written 'CAESAR' instead of 'CÆSAR'. Beetfarm Louie 16:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

One other thing I have seen mentioned (among other places, on another Wikipedia article about a specific emperor, I believe,) was that Æ was used in engravings to save carving space and carving time. But in writing, it would always be written AE. Basically, it's a contraction. Ehurtley 14:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"The Purple"?

Okay, I came to this page with no real prior knowledge of the actual functioning of the Roman Empire. So I have no idea what it means to "assume the purple", or "don the purple"... It is not explained anywhere. I assume that "the purple" is a synonym for the Roman throne, but explaining it would be a good idea for us newbies, or leave this odd terminology out altogether, if a more commonly understandable phrase could be substituted. Ehurtley 14:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that, given the context of the article, it is entirely clear what "the purple" means. This is a nitpick. The preceding unsigned comment was made by 198.107.240.10 on 22 February 2007

No, it's not a nitpick. I still have no idea what "The Purple" really is. Again, I can assume what it is, but with no clarity. The best I can find is a comment in the "Trivia" section of an article for an episode of the TV show Babylon 5! Was the emperor's robe purple? The throne? What? And what the heck is "accession to the senior purple"? It also doesn't help that it's not capitalized anywhere. That makes me REALLY wonder. It's obviously not an official title. Ehurtley 08:13, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Per this phrase search, from Claudius I on, emperors were distinguished by wearing purple togas. Saw your post on /. 75.18.200.11 12:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if that is still up, but I agree. I don't know what the 'purple' is, and the toga concept only makes a minimal amount of sense. 76.22.13.163 23:27, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Polish translation

I'm not a historian but as far as I know we would rather say "cezar" <tsezar> instead of "cesarz" referring to all the emperors of Ancient Rome. We would naturally mean "cesarz" too but "cesarz" is rather used as a title for German Emperors sometimes "Tsars" (though in this case we would probably stick to "Car" <tsar>)

Pronunciation

Is it worthy to note that probably the most correct Latin pronunciation, and by extension English pronunciation of Caesar, is Kaiser, the German pronunciation?86.156.52.67 (talk) 21:59, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The most correct Latin spelling is Caepar or Cae Par. Cae Par literally means "part of the heavens" as in divine. The Latin word Capra (goat/she-goat) is probably related as is the English word Cape as in cloak/veil/robe and also the caper genre of crime stories. Speaking of capes/robes, I dunno if it's related at all to the above question about purple, but "Purple robe" is mentioned in Mark 15:17. Only the Byzantine "Roman" Emperors wore purple togas.

The "p" degenerated into an "s" over time. Perhaps there is a phonetic similarity to "Pharoh" because of the meaning of Pharoh eluding to divine (from above/from the heavens). The Par means "part" but perhaps something got lost in left-to-right and right-to-left translations. That would give us other phonetically similar words like Pharisees, Parisii, Persia, and Pars. Though the meanings differ, their origin could be similar. Phonetic similarities are always worth exploring, often they are not coincidence and only inside-the-box perceptions dismiss the idea without research.

Pars in particular (the 'of the heavens part') is used by cartographers on ancient maps, usually around modern-day Iran but also in areas of Asia and in some cases (oddly) the Americas. In fact, Mercator labeled Northern Canada "Ameri Cae Par" which in Latin literally translates as "part of the heavens they came from Ameria." The odds are pretty slim that consensus is right about the Americas named after explorer Amerigo Vespucci. Scholars debate it to this day, but it still winds up in the history books for public schools without mentioning alternatives. Ameria/Amelia is an old city in Italy for example. Since much of this is original research, it can't be added to the article. But if you aren't held back by perceptions it's common sense, you don't need a scholar to tell you otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.14.223.95 (talk) 22:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Ottoman Empire

When did the Ottoman Empire lose the title caesar? Please explain.Ti2008 (talk) 13:08, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Etymology

The article on Julius Caesar#Early life and career has a source on the etymology of the name, being its nickname for the caesarian section, which came before Julius, contrary to the myth. -Inowen (talk) 06:54, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Is there no Indo-European relation between the name Caesar and the Indo-Iranian XšaΘra? Shadzad (talk) 02:49, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

Merge proposal: Byzantine title

Should Caesar (Byzantine title) be merged into this page? This page includes a number of different usages of the title, not all just from the imperial Roman period. Neither page is all that long. –Iveagh Gardens (talk) 16:41, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Arabic Qasr: not related

The article claims that "Qas'r (palace)" is derived from Caesar. Qasr is usually considered to be derived from the Latin word for castle, not from Caesar! Wiki article Qasr also indicates "castrum" as origin. I cannot read or speak Arabic, maybe there are two similar words spelled in slightly different ways and we should just remove "(palace)"; or maybe there are two different theories about the etymology of qasr, and that needs to be elaborated in the respective article. Also, "Qas'r" with apostrophe looks like a weird (or wrong?) transliteration to me. Arminden (talk) 06:25, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes,like you mentioned the transliteration of the Arabic word [قَصْر] that means castle is [qaṣr] not [qas'r] that will be [قَصْأْر] or [قَصْعْر] in Arabic, and that will be wrong like you suspected. Heebar (talk) 11:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Se Sarium Dictatorus

A hint to the etymology of Caesar as a title lies in Latin. In conjunction with Sarium, Se forms Se Sarium, a brief title when further simplified in Latin, from

Se Sarium --> to C-ae-sar

C, in this titular context, represents Roman Latin's of the time's plosive introductory character in titles.

Æ represents a dipthrong of vocal excitation, leading to, sar.

Sar is a shortened abbreviation in this title for Sarium, in general, in vernacular English meaning "is necessary"

The implied [MAN] Is Necessary, in Vernacular English, unpacked, is what Caesar in conjunction with Gaius Julius Caesar means. Fitting, for a dictator.

The title of Caesar, is Gaius's personal attempt in his self Cognomina ex virtute, to label himself as necessary as a leader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.20.225.225 (talk) 11:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Constantius II

From the article Constantius II: "Constantius was a son of Constantine the Great, who elevated him to the imperial rank of Caesar on 8 November 324". Which date is correct: 1 March 317 or 8 November 324? - Eroica (talk) 13:17, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

324. Constantius was only born in August 317. The March 1 refers to his older brother Constantine II. 2001:569:7EBB:7D00:DC0F:48E:9FD2:E0A0 (talk) 15:45, 9 December 2022 (UTC)