Talk:Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness

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Good articleMellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
October 12, 2008Good article nomineeListed

Quintessential[edit]

"said to be one of the quintessential and defining albums of the 90s"

I know this is splitting hairs, but I disagree with this usage of "quintessential." Mellon Collie is not broadly representative of music that was released during the 1990s. It is intentially anachronistic, which is part of its charm. "Quintessential" is one of those terms, along with "meteoric rise," that is overused in music reviews.

Mister Tog 16:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Galapogos?[edit]

I know the correct spelling is Galápagos (yes, with the second "a" accented)... but I'm wondering if the misspelling is the band's, or the editors'. Anyone got their album handy who can verify this?

It's spelled on the album "Galapogos". God knows why. Thanks for asking first! Underwater 15:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Right now both spellings are listed on this album page.. I say they should both read "Galapogos" as given on the album. I'm going to make the change -- please protest in response here. 74.128.253.162 01:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
no no no no... i think it should stay as the album spelling...if it doesn't stay a sthe album spelling does that mean that we should change all the (supposed) misspellings on every album? "Galapogos" is the album spelling and, whether it is an error on Corgan's (or the label's or whoever's) side or not, Galapogos it should stay...Sickboy3883 22:41, 12 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
well thats what i thought about the Wolfmother album, where the international version spells "thief" wrong on the track listing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.238.129.39 (talk) 23:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Record of the Year?[edit]

If it was released in 1995, how was it nominated for Record of the Year (1979)? Shouldn't that be 1997?

No it means that the song 1979 was nominated for Record of the Year.Aljohnston 23:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I reformatted all the album and song titles to conform to WP:MOS-T which also has the nice side effect of making it more clear that it's referring to the song "1979" and not the year. Pimlottc 20:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Artwork[edit]

I'm not a hardcore wikipedian, but I'm curious if we should include a section on the album artwork.

"Art direction for the album is credited to Frank Olinsky and Billy Corgan. The actual illustrations are digital collages put together by John Craig. The design for the album cover was inspired by a combination of the face from the painting Fidelity by Jean Baptiste Greuze and the body from the painting Saint Catherine of Alexandria by Raphael."

Taken from http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Mellon_Collie_and_the_Infinite_Sadness

Fidelity by Jean-Baptiste Greuze - http://gardenofpraise.com/artprint75.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redconfetti (talk • contribs) 00:27, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Song articles[edit]

Is it necessary for every friggin' song on the album to have an entry? I simply do not see why 'Thru The Eyes Of Ruby' needs an entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.149.83.23 (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Songs like "Jellybelly" and "Here Is No Why" both were singles and had plenty of info on them, why delete song articles which are useful just because there are other useless ones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SomeGuy11112 (talk • contribs) 22:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I converted most of the non-single articles into redirects; the old versions of the articles may still be found in the edit history.
As far as I'm aware, neither "Jellybelly" nor "Here Is No Why" were singles. If you look at the last versions before being converted to redirect ([1], [2]) you'll see that the majority of the content was unreferenced speculation. Basically, the articles didn't meet the criteria at WP:MUSIC. Regards, Oli Filth 23:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Outtakes (possible errors)[edit]

Howdy, I'm looking on my iPod right now at my (massive) SP collection. I'm trying to match the info given on this page with what I have in the way of demos and outtakes for MCIS. I'm not having much luck. While much of the information listed is correct, others (such as the descriptions of "Wishing You Were Here") seem to be a little off the mark. Additionally, while I have copies of MCIS Demos I, II, and III, as well as Billy's Gravity Demos and Sequence IV, I can't find any of the instrumentals listed here (at least not under those names). I am fairly sure that my versions are correct, as they are from reliable sources (RSPAA, ZOMB tracker site, and the old www.billy-corgan.com site). Also, a quick check at SPFC.org doesn't come back with any hits for these 3 instrumentals. I am going to keep an eye on this discussion for a while, and if I don't see anything in the way of explanation, I'll be replacing the current list with my own. --Kylemanor 18:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, ee gads this section is waaaay too long and detailed. I really dont see why an album article needs this level of detail about stuff thats NOT EVEN ON THE ALBUM. SPFC can handle this nitty gritty, lets leave it off wikipedia. -Werideatdusk33 05:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Other pages (such as Adore) have outtakes sections, but i agree that this is done to too much detail. I suggest keeping the list of song outtakes but deleting the list of "666" demos, as this seems a bit trivial. Aljohnston 11:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This album is connected[edit]

All song titles serve as redirects to this album, have their own pages, or have been placed at the appropriate disambiguation pages. Godlord2 02:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not now!--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 22:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball City?[edit]

'"Other names considered for the album were Venus and Chloe,[citation needed] Sad and Sadder,[7] The Phoenix Meets the Dwarf, Basketball Land, and Baseball City.[3]"'

Okay, I think the band might be joking. Well, at least I hope so. Why in the world would Billy actually consider naming the album Basketball Land?!! 72.91.96.159 04:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I remember seeing that Rockumentary where they mentioned the last 3. They're jokes and should probably be taken out of the article, or mentioned otherwise. I remember Iha came up with 'The Phoenix...' on the spot, saying it was going to be called "something like" that. Actually, I'm pretty sure "Sad and Sadder" is a joke too, poking fun at the actual album title.MrHate 05:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think those last three are all James Iha jokes a'la "The Search for the Yeti" for Siamese Dream. -Werideatdusk33 22:40, 17 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Writing Credits?[edit]

Are all songs/outtakes credited to Corgan? 67.167.159.39 00:08, 26 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Concept Album?[edit]

On the page for Tonight Tonight, it claims that "Lyrically, "Tonight, Tonight" hangs together with the rest of the Mellon Collie, which is a concept album, as a symbol for the cycle of life and death." Should this be mentioned in the article? Brimstorch (talk) 18:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Date of Recording[edit]

" After the 13-month Siamese Dream tour, Corgan immediately began writing songs for the band's third album.[1] "

This is referenced, but I was initial songwriting, especially for 'Bullet with Butterfly Wings', occurred earlier. Quoting: Hanson, Amy: 'Tales of a Scorched Earth' pp. 127: 2004, Helter Skelter; London:

'The song ['Bullet with Butterfly Wings'] had come together from the Siamese Dream sessions, where Corgan first nailed down the main riff. The final piece was not schemed, he told Guitar World, 'until a year and a half later... writing the "rat in a cage" part on an acoustic guitar at the BBC studios in London on the same day that "Landslide" was recorded.'

While Hanson doesn't provide references for her quotes.

The Wikipedia MCIS article also states 57 songs were written for the album. Tracks such as 'Set the Ray to Jerry', 'Meladori Magpie' ('Doorstep') and others were already in existance at the time of Siamese Dream. Are these included in the count? Does the count include instrumental tracks which went nowhere (except 'Pistachio Medley') after the Gravity Demos? Does it include 'Whishing You Were' and 'Methusela'?

vaughn1@ekit.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.164.255.60 (talk) 07:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Drop D?[edit]

The article says that in drop D, the lowest string is tuned to C#. Being a user of the drop D scheme on my guitar, I know this to be false. I move that the sentence be deleted and the source rejected. James Whales (talk) 02:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's drop-D on a guitar that's already tuned down a half-step. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WesleyDodds, you've reverted to information that's at odds with the cited magazine article. "Drop D" doesn't mean dropping the lowest string a whole step from any starting point. It specifically means tuning to the D below standard E. In the cited source, Corgan says, "...we use the 'grunge tuning,'" which Iha explains to mean dropping the first string to D. But then Corgan corrects him, saying, "Yeah, but then we detuned everything on the album down a half step. So, like, the bottom string on the bass was E flat. And the dropped D stuff is really C sharp." The line you keep including says, "the instruments were also put in a drop D tuning ... this meant the lowest strings on the guitars were actually tuned to C#." That statement is plainly wrong, and the source agrees. AlanJM (talk) 05:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fuck You (An Ode to No One)[edit]

I've never heard this called that. Source? Zazaban (talk) 23:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check the lyrics that come with the CD. The full title is not printed on the CD case, for obvious reasons. WesleyDodds (talk) 09:12, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Lead
  • "Produced by Smashing Pumpkins frontman Billy Corgan, Flood and Alan Moulder," Shouldn't this be "The Smashing Pumpkins" following on from the previous sentence. You've described who Corgan is here, but not Flood or Moulder.
  • Fixed. Also, no need for "The" in this instance. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • How come you feel there is no need for "The". I personally disagree but am interested to hear your opinion. Peanut4 (talk) 00:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because it's not grammatically correct. The phrasing used in the lead compares to "Yankees shortstop John Smith". In this context "the" is not used. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand that analogy. New York Yankees is the name of the team, not The New York Yankees. The Smashing Pumpkins is the name of the band, not Smashing Pumpkins. Peanut4 (talk) 00:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You refer to the team as "the Yankees" in condensed form. For more appropriate analogy, you don't say "Mick Jagger sang with with The Who singer Roger Daltrey on a few tracks"; you say "Mick Jagger sang with with Who singer Roger Daltrey on a few tracks". Even if "the" is a proper part of the name, you remove "the" in phrases like this. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:43, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I actually think "Mick Jagger sang with with The Who singer Roger Daltrey on a few tracks" makes more grammatical sense than the second option. And as you say you refer to "the Yankees", small t, hence only when "the" is needed for the sentence. If this sentence was "Produced by Yankees frontman Billy Corgan", I would actually prefer "Produced by the Yankees frontman Billy Corgan," since the refers to the frontman, not a frontman. Peanut4 (talk) 00:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, you've helped illustrate why "the" is not included. If "the" were included in the phrase, regardless of capitalization it would be referring to Billy Corgan, because "Smashing Pumpkins frontman" is a description of Corgan. Corgan is an individual, and thus you don't use "the" to refer to him. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure but this may be a difference of Am. Eng. and Br. Eng. This certainly isn't worth a pass / fail discussion over. I'm still convinced that it should be "The Smashing Pumpkins". However, I'll leave that up to any future discussion / direction of the article. Peanut4 (talk) 00:58, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Recording
  • Write the main section independent of the lead, hence use full names once again on the first appearance, e.g. Billy Corgan then Corgan, James Iha then Iha, not Corgan, Iha, etc.
  • ""[T]o me, the biggest offender was the insidious amounts of time that everyone spends waiting for guitar parts to be overdubbed. There were literally weeks where no one had anything to do but sit and wait."" Is "[T]o" correct? It looks a bit odd.
  • Yes, it's correct, since the original source did no capitalize the "T". WesleyDodds (talk) 00:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The album was going to have 32 songs, but this was cut back to the 28 songs." Was there any reason given for the final total cut back?
Release
  • "Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness was released in October 1995. The following week, Mellon Collie debuted at number one on the Billboard 200," The release date only specifies the month, but the next sentence says "The following week" so it doesn't make full sense. I would give the exact release date.

A very good read, and everything else looks in place. Might be good to get at least one more image if possible though. I'll put it on hold for the points above. Peanut4 (talk) 23:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

I'm still unconvinced by "Smashing Pumpkins" rather than "The Smashing Pumpkins" but I guess it's better to get more opinion on it anyway. Would also be good to find out why the number of songs was cut down. Overall, it's a very good read though and meets the GA criteria. Peanut4 (talk) 01:09, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to review this, but I see I was beaten to the punch. A few things:

  • I agree with Peanut4 about the "The", except that it follows another instance of "The Smashing Pumpkins" in the previous sentence. I'd recommend replacing "Smashing Pumpkins" with "band" for that reason.
  • "This culminated in a double album release featuring 28 songs, with the five main singles being backed by the remaining 23 songs." I've never heard the term "backed" used in the context of an album, only singles themselves. The sentence doesn't add anything anyway, so I'd just cut it.
  • I'm one of those people who find "utilize" to be a dead word. Can the first instance be replaced with "incorporates" and the second be dropped altogether?
  • Just certified "nine" times platinum, not "9.8".
  • In the track listing, I'd drop the 12" from "12" Vinyl version". For LPs, it's like saying 4¾" CD.
  • Would be a good idea to add subsections of "Additional personnel" and "Production" in the "Personnel" section.
  • The "References" section is unnecessary. If the reference were a book, and the footnotes section included a number of corresponding citations, that would be different.

Nice job on everything else. —Zeagler (talk) 01:47, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The RIAA has certified the album as having sold 9.8 copies in the United States.[15]

Copies sold[edit]

I'm sure they sold more than nine copies of the album in the US. Maybe that should read "9.8 million copies", but that is at odds with the footnote ("[...]4.5 million copies of the double album package[...]") and the link in the reference goes to nowhere. --131.130.121.138 (talk) 22:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The RIAA site change their layout; I'll need to find an archive of that page. WesleyDodds (talk) 23:10, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Packaging[edit]

Why was the below information deleted from the article?

Art direction for the album is credited to Frank Olinsky and Billy Corgan. The actual illustrations are digital collages put together by John Craig. The design for the album cover was inspired by a combination of the face from the painting Fidelity by Jean Baptiste Greuze and the body from the painting Saint Catherine of Alexandria by Raphael.

Corgan described the album's title as "just another one of those pretentious Pumpkin album titles continuing the long line of pretension."[1] When asked about other possible album titles that were considered, the band joked, Sad and Sadder,[2] The Phoenix Meets the Dwarf, Basketball Land, and Baseball City.[1]

I can understand deleting the second paragraph, but I was specifically trying to find information about the album's artwork only to find it in an older version of this article. chad. (talk) 01:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ a b Cite error: The named reference rockumentary was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ "Title Unknown". Juice Magazine. August 1996 (available online). {{cite news}}: |first= missing |last= (help); Check date values in: |date= (help); External link in |date= (help); Text "cite news" ignored (help)

Here Is No Why and Friends (TV Series)[edit]

Did "Here Is No Why" ever serve as theme song for Friends? --Ldfifty (talk) 12:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mellon collie cost $20 to make??[edit]

Thats what it says in release and reception. 222.155.60.239 (talk) 03:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well....I know of a demo tape that was made for $15.In a studio. --Nirvanarox55 (talk) 12:18, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

12" Vinyl version.[edit]

As a vinyl collector, I hate to see vinyl LPs referred to as 12" vinyl. 12" vinyl usually refers to singles, as opposed to albums. Sorry to be pedantic, but it's just something that bugs me when I view this page. 200.86.14.233 (talk) 21:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the terminology, and I went ahead and made the change. In the future, you can be bold and make these sorts of changes yourself; I very much doubt there will be any objection. hbent (talk) 15:49, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thank you, I will. I did think about making such changes, but I just wasn't sure how. 200.86.14.233 (talk) 14:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Queen inflluence?[edit]

The page for Queen says the Smashing Pumpkins is one of the many bands it influenced. Perhaps that's most evident on this album, especially the "epic" feel of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.90.68 (talk) 06:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Heads up[edit]

http://www.avclub.com/articles/smashing-pumpkins-mellon-collie-and-the-infinite-s,86115/ --Mrmoustache14 (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Non-free content[edit]

I'm not sure about the need for three song samples. Add on the album artwork and there appears to be no licensed multimedia in the article. Per WP:NFCCP I think we should reduce to just a single audio sample, if even that (unfortunately). — MusikAnimal talk 05:32, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Writing credits[edit]

Instead of including "All songs written by Billy Corgan, except where noted", why not just list Corgan in the credits column of the track listing template? This seems standard, but I figured I would ask if there was a reason for this before making the change. ----Another Believer (Talk) 15:26, 18 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it would become pretentious for 26 songs to be all credited "Corgan". It is much easier to just say "All songs written by Billy Corgan, except where noted" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.116.140.74 (talk) 13:55, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Article requirements:

Green tickY All the start class criteria
Green tickY A completed infobox, including cover art and most technical details
Green tickY At least one section of prose (excluding the lead section)
Green tickY A track listing containing track lengths and authors for all songs
Green tickY A full list of personnel, including technical personnel and guest musicians
Green tickY Categorisation at least by artist and year

Green tickY A casual reader should learn something about the album.Andrzejbanas (talk) 20:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 20:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 23:40, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Two colors sets for discs[edit]

I think it should be mentioned that there were two color sets for discs (Red, Blue) or (blue, red) for disc 1, 2 respectively see: http://static.wixstatic.com/media/e56f8f_7df8497eee514330a7b6836ffc912234.png/v1/fill/w_620,h_633/e56f8f_7df8497eee514330a7b6836ffc912234.png If anyone knows why that'd be interesting trivia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.65.119.186 (talk) 22:37, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Touring the album[edit]

Hi. I know the GA passed some 13 years ago(!) but it would be nice/interesting to have a section on how the band toured this album. Were there songs that they couldn't play live, for example? How many shows/countries did they tour. And I'm sure that before the pandemic I read a magazine article where Corgan was planning to play the whole thing live during 2020 for its 25th anniversary. Now that would be sweet! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:08, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Farewell and Goodnight[edit]

This is listed as solely an Iha composition on this page, but in the liner notes for my copy of Mellon Collie it says it was co-written by Iha and Corgan. TempDog123 (talk) 05:07, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find an image of the liner notes from my CD version (which is from the 90s) but there's an image of the booklet from the 2012 reissue and it also lists the song as co-written by Iha and Corgan. Check page 17: https://kupdf.net/download/digital-booklet-mellon-collie-and-the-infinite-sadness-deluxe-edition_5af924a5e2b6f583540f01c9_pdf. TempDog123 (talk) 05:23, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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