Talk:Fraser Island

Former name or the other name?

Previously the article stated -> "Fraser Island, also known as "K'gari". I just edited it and changed it to "K'gari, 'formally' known as Fraser Island" since officially Fraser island is not its name anymore and likely to stay that way. People should be made aware it doesn't have two names but only one official name. And that Fraser island was the former official name. But feel maybe it needs to be discussed since it's a gray new territory here. Some context is the reason they changed the name was supposedly to get rid of the colonial stain given the life story of Eliza Fraser, who practically demonized indigenous people. So it's extremely unlikely the government will officially rename the island back as "Fraser island" ever again. Nvtuil (talk) 08:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The name Fraser Island remains official and the primary name. It is not the former name at all. See my comments on the move discussion above. If you are going to make claims about such things, point to evidence for what you claim. This is an encyclopedia, citations needed! Kerry (talk) 15:21, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I think you meant 'formerly' not 'formally', but, more importantly, I think a change to the lead sentence should follow the move, not precede it. Tkanus ^dialogue 00:58, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

The Islands name has never formally changed from Fraser Island, It's still in the public consultation phase. [1] Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 23:01, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Time to update the name.

Since 2011, K’gari has been recognised as an alternative name for what was Fraser Island, but now the latter has been dropped entirely.
K’gari was originally known by Europeans as Great Sandy Island before it was changed to Fraser Island, after Scotswoman Eliza Fraser was shipwrecked there in the 1830s.
The name had been deemed culturally inappropriate as Fraser wrote a debunked negative tale of her “captivity” by the Butchulla people, who she called “savages” and “cannibals”, after the shipwreck. The lies spread throughout the English colony despite being contradicted by fellow survivors.
— https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jun/07/fraser-island-no-more-kgaris-official-name-change-corrects-a-historic-wrong

Pandapod1 (talk) 08:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

In light of this news, the name of the article should be changed. Jmbranum (talk) 11:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Sincere edits of this page to correct the misuse of 'Fraser Island' as the place's name are being undone/reverted without proper reason. The name of this place is officially 'K'gari' since June 2023, and its former name, and the name that some people know it as, is 'Fraser Island'. Stating it like this is consistent with other like renamed places - Uluru. There is a racist and colonialist background to defending the use of Fraser Island as the 'correct' name that is extremely harmful and the user 'Ash' needs to stop reverting attempts to better the situation to suit their own agenda with improper reasoning behind doing so. 165.85.11.116 (talk) 05:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, whoever you are, it is not racist to recognise Australia's colonial and indigenous history, together, side by side. It is Australia's history. Many people have grown up and know the island as Fraser. To not recognise this is harmful to society as a whole. Nobody is saying its the 'correct name', just the alternate name. Take a lead out of New Zealand's book. They use both English and Maori words in their signage, vernacular, books and so on. We could do the same here. But to say the colonialist name for an island is racist, is by itself incredibly racist. Ash Kuss (talk) 17:53, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The complaint is 'There is a racist and colonialist background to defending the use of Fraser Island as the 'correct' name, which is legitimate. Naming is an ownership tool and one of the first things that colonists did to claim/enable ownership of Australia. The complaint is not talking about not recognising the colonial name (it literally says the opposite), nor saying that Indigenous history and colonial history are somehow divisible. It is legitimate to claim that it is racist for someone to defend a colonial name as the correct name OVER the Indigenous name when it is the official name. Many locals, including me, still call it Fraser Island. I am making a conscious effort to change this and it doesn't help when people insist that its name is Fraser Island just because locals use that name. Us locals also call McDonalds 'Maccas' but that's not its official name. This page should be called K'gari. 117.20.69.180 (talk) 08:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

It sounds as if you are trying to label me as racist and colonialist (?) for defending the use of Fraser Island as the 'correct' name, which is a strawman argument. I have never made such claims, so you should probably retract your accusation. I believe Fraser is just as legitimate a name as K'gari. If someone wants to call it K'gari, okay, if someone else wants to call it Fraser, great. Just don't correct them and insist they use the other name because the one they're using hurts people's feelings. Also, it's odd that you seem to have negative attitudes towards colonialism, seeing as you are free to express your opinions and live in a nation that has come about as a result of it. Ash Kuss (talk) 17:42, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

100% in agreement mate. I go to "Straddie" not "North Stradbroke Island" - but I wouldn't expect to find the page called "Straddie".

But seems people are only happy with Australia being a majority democratic nation, when it suits them. Fourixxxx (talk) 04:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Straddie is a shorthand name or nickname for North Stradbroke Island, not an alternate name, there's a difference. Fraser is an alternate name to K'gari, and the former happens to be the one many still prefer. The government consulted a vocal minority on the name change and then didn't bring it to the people of Queensland before changing it. Instead, they just went ahead and did it. I'd say that's undemocratic. Ash Kuss (talk) 03:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

1. Citation needed for Fraser being the "one many still prefer".

2. The article itself talks about the open consultation process; you haven't provided any evidence that it is limited in participation to the "vocal minority". If you felt so strongly about this issue, you should have campaigned against the name change and motivated by the silent majority you believe are against the change.

3. The Government doesn't need to put every minute issue to a referendum for it to be democratic. We live in a system of indirect democracy, where it is understood that the Government holds a mandate to enact changes that don't affect the (state) Constitution. If you don't like this, feel free to criticise it and vote for the other guys next election. But you can't call it "undemocratic".

4. The official Government name is K'gari. Fraser isn't even dual-recognised. That alone is sufficient to change the page name to "K'gari (Fraser Island)".

5. Note that if you were consistent in your arguments (about colonial history being valid history etc), you would support changing Uluru's page to "Ayers Rock" and have the first sentence be "Ayers Rock, officially Uluru...". I'll leave it for you to reflect on why this is absurd, and consequently, all your arguments reduce down to an absurdity and thus can be discarded. LStravaganz (talk) 16:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

1. Nope. This is a conversation thread, not a wikipedia article, and I am referring to something that is common knowledge. So even if you shout "Source! Source! Source!" it can't be deleted as that would be edit warring and can lead to sanctions.
2. It actually doesn't. It was a closed consultation on Fraser Island and likely only people of a certain heritage were listened to by the current state government, certainly not the people of Queensland. So yes, it was 100% undemocratic.
3. Usually the state would put a proposed change to the people, because uhh.. uhh... accountability. A referendum or plebiscite is a federal government matter, so it doesn't really apply here. A proposed change was not put to the people of Queensland so again, it is 100% undemocratic.
4. Look on literally any article about Fraser/K'gari on a mainstream media source (channel 9, 7, 10, ABC, SBS, news.com, etc.), which is usually some non-news story about a kid who gets bitten by a dingo, and you will see a slew of comments from Queenslanders saying it's still Fraser to them.
5. Lol, solid strawman argument, loving the use of projection and non-sequiturs (not really). You're asserting that I would agree with all that has happened in Australian history (I don't). You're claiming that Ayers Rock was renamed back to Uluru during the colonial period (it was 1993).

You can keep huffing and puffing about why you think I'm wrong cobber, I actually don't mind the use of both Fraser and K'Gari. It seems to be the state government who wishes to erase Anglicised history, which is actually racist. Ash Kuss (talk) 06:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll keep "huffing and puffing" so long as you insist on doing the same. A bit strange for you to call the kettle black on this.

1. Actually, K'gari is the name many prefer, and since this is a "conversation thread", I needn't supply proof and you just have to accept it.

2. A simple Google search will reveal that the state government received 6000 submissions from different stakeholders, including the public. If you cared about this issue enough, maybe you should have engaged with this process.

3. Actually the State does hold referendums, because the State has a Constitution. Bit embarrassing you don't know this mate.

4. Don't really care what random Facebook article comments says. K'gari is the official name.

5. It's not a strawman argument, because I'm asking you to defend changing Uluru's page in order to consistently apply your stance.

Overall I hope readers of this thread can see very clearly your absolute ignorance of even basic stuff (see Point 3 for a particular egregious case of Dunning-Kruger syndrome), and as such realise that no weight at all should be lent to your drivel. LStravaganz (talk) 09:16, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

1. Lol, 6000 submissions ,which may or may not be from Queenslanders, is by far, a resounding minority since our population is over 5 and a half million. I can't have engaged in the process if it was an open and closed case that the state government wished to waste its time and our taxpayer dollars on.
2. I know that a referendum is on proposed changes to a constitution whether state or federal. A name change generally doesn't fall into that camp. The state government still should have been accountable to it's 5 and a half million constituents instead of 60,00, but it's probably less than that let's be honest.
3. You don't care about what Queenslanders have to say about Fraser Island? You only care about what the loud minority have to say? How sad and small-minded of you!.
4. Nope, you're projecting an illogical non-sequitur. Some people still do call it Ayers Rock, some people call it Uluru, and that's a source coming from their territory government. So why is the Queensland state government so busy trying to legislate Anglicised names out? That's actually racist.
5. As to your last paragraph, buy a mirror. Walk away, learn something productive. The rest of us will take it from here (and will call the island Fraser). Good day.

Ash Kuss (talk) 08:49, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

1. No response to this, thanks for conceding that K'gari is actually the name most people prefer.

2. Actually 6000 submissions is an incredibly high number of submissions for any public consultation process. Clearly the other 5 million QLD'ers didn't care enough to make a submission, so it's not like their absence should count as "no" votes.

3. Backpedal as hard as you want mate, you were just straight up wrong before about referendums, which you thought were a federal-only matter. No shame in admitting you learnt something new from me here.

4. I do care about what QLD'ers have to say, and the overwhelming number of them clearly didn't care enough to make submissions, or wrote in supportive submissions.

5. Again, you need to defend changing the name of Uluru's page to "Ayers Rock", or "Ayers Rock (Uluru)" in order to stay consistent to your stance of preventing the erasure of Anglicised names, which you consider racist. You have yet to provide a statement on where you stand on this. If you persist in refusing to take a stance, then I can only conclude your position is hypocritical and thus safe to be ignored.

6. Bit rich asking me to "learn something" when you literally didn't know QLD can hold state referendums. Maybe come back to me after you graduate from a primary-school social-studies class, and then we can talk. LStravaganz (talk) 11:57, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Not only that, but most media outlets (including Murdoch media) and businesses on the ground use K'gari (see list on voy:Talk:K'gari). Only Ash Kuss is claiming that most Queenslanders favour the old name. SHB2000 (talk) 10:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Nope. It's already been acknowledged that many Queenslanders on the comments section of news media posts still prefer Fraser. Ash Kuss (talk) 05:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

1. No response because your argument is intellectually dishonest and it's not worth the energy.
2. 6000 submissions is a lot if over 5000 of them were possibly created by bots. We don't know who or what those submissions are,;that information is not available on public record. Either way, the change shouldn't have happened without the say of all Queenslanders. It's good that you concede that most Queenslanders don't care because you're acknowledging that the name change was unnecessary and most people just want to get on with their lives. By default, this is a no, as in, no change because it doesn't matter. By your reasoning, in their "absence" (strange wording as there wasn't anything to attend), it definitely wouldn't count as a yes.
3. Referenda are typically a federal matter and are usually not carried out by the state. Even if it were, the state should have had an open consultation with all Queenslanders, which is not a referendum. A referendum, as acknowledged, has to do with matters regarding its constitution, which bears no relevance to an unnecessary name change, so it's bizarre that you even bring it up.
4. Read what you said slowly: "the overwhelming number of them clearly didn't care enough to make submissions, or write* in supportive submissions.", which would, by default, be a no. Otherwise, you would read the room and respect the general attitude, whether you agree with it or not. Clearly, the Palaszczuk/Miles government hadn't respected this, which is sad and wrong.
5. You're continuing with your nonsensical strawman argument, I see. The burden of proof is not on me to defend Ayers Rock over Uluru. It has already been acknowledged that the Northern Territory Government refers to its national park by both names. The Queensland state government is not consistent with this by dropping the Anglicised name Fraser for its island. Therefore, the burden of proof is actually on the government to explain why they went ahead with their nanny-state decision, which is inconsistent with many dual named places around Australia.
6. Thanks mate, you've just indicated to everyone where you haven't graduated from. The adults will take it from here, and many of us still call the island Fraser. This clearly triggers you so I suggest you grow up first. Then we can talk.

Ash Kuss (talk) 06:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, speaking of Uluru/Ayers Rock, they still use the dual names. This is because Uluru being a noun in the Pitjantjatjara language doesn't have an English translation - so the Anglicised name remains.<ref>https://parksaustralia.gov.au/uluru/about/ayers-rock-or-uluru/#:~:text=He%20named%20it%20Ayers%20Rock,to%20be%20given%20dual%20names.<ref>

So what's the problem with retaining the dual name on Fraser? Ash Kuss (talk) 08:03, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

If you read my initial comment you'll see I have no objection to "K'gari (Fraser Island)". So you're engaging in a bit of strawman here big fella. LStravaganz (talk) 09:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Fraser Island (K'gari)*. We are a nation that is part of the British Commonwealth, so the indigenous name comes second. Ash Kuss (talk) 08:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Support name change to "K'gari (Fraser Island)" on the basis that K'gari is the sole official Government-sanctioned name since 7 June 2023 (official source), and Fraser Island is a common but unofficial name. Having both names in the title satifies the WP:TITLE guide of recognisability while respecting the official and normative name change. LStravaganz (talk) 16:03, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for agreeing with my argument. Fraser is indeed a common (and popular) unofficial alternate name for the Island. Ash Kuss (talk) 07:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Great, then I expect you to support renaming the page to "K'gari (Fraser Island)" when the move request happens. LStravaganz (talk) 09:22, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Fraser Island (K'gari)*. We are a nation that is part of the British Commonwealth, so the indigenous name comes second. Ash Kuss (talk) 08:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Nope, that has nothing to do with being part of the British Commonwealth. K'gari (Fraser Island) would reflect WP:COMMONNAME better. --SHB2000 (talk) 09:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Wrong. Until we become a republic, we are very much still part of the monarchy of the British Commonwealth. We have already acknowledged the use of the English language (which we are all beneficiaries of), and the colonisation of our nation and subsequent democracy instead of warring factions. The Commonwealth has everything to do with it. Fraser Island (K'gari) would be much more appropriate. Ash Kuss (talk) 05:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

References

Recent addition to § Toponymy

Related discussions:

• User talk:Ash.david § Adding uncited statements (permalink)
• User talk:Turnagra § Fraser Island (K'gari) Name Change.
• User talk:Twotwos § Fraser Island (K'gari) name change.
• User talk:Tol/Archives/2024/01 § Fraser Island name change.

@Ash.david, @Twotwos, @Turnagra: I believe it would be most productive to centralise discussion regarding Ash.david's addition of "However, many locals and tourists still refer to it as Fraser Island" here, so that we don't have multiple different discussions on different talk pages. I have linked some previous discussions regarding this addition above. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 19:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Tol. I see that some sources have been added to back up the comment, but none of them seem to do so. The first three primarily refer to k'gari as the name and only use Fraser Island in the context of other things (eg. the Fraser Island Great Walk) or noting that the island was formerly called Fraser Island, while the fourth doesn't appear to mention the island at all. None of them say anything about how the locals refer to the island.

As an aside, I note that this section was deleted soon after posting. @Ash.david, editing other user's comments or deleting them from talk pages is absolutely not allowed on wikipedia - please have a look at WP:TPOC. Turnagra (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree — Ash.david's most recent edit, adding four references, still does not seem to support the assertion. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 19:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Given the continued disruption, I have opened an edit warring noticeboard discussion here (permalink). Tol (talk | contribs) @ 20:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Hey there, I have removed the former conversation as I believe it was not helpful to anyone let alone the improvement of information on the Fraser Island Wikipedia page. I would like to add that Fraser Island is still referred to under its former name by locals, tourists, businesses, organisations and community groups as the change officially only happened mid-late 2023. Fraser Island has been the widely used and well-known name for many years before the official recognition of K'gari. It takes time for new names to gain widespread adoption, and some people may continue to use the familiar term Fraser Island out of habit or lack of awareness of the indigenous name. Seeing as there has been an issue with citations, I'd be interested to know what kind of sources would be appropriate to back up the statement. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ash.david (talk • contribs) 6:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I've restored the discussion. Ash.david, as mentioned previously, you're not allowed to edit or remove other people's comments on talk pages in situations like this. You may not see it as helpful, but others might.

As for your question, to back up a statement you need something that actually mentions what you're saying. So in this case, you need to have a source that says something along the lines of "the island is still called Fraser Island by many", which so far none of the sources you've used have had. I'd also be curious to know why you are so insistent on adding this to the article, given that the WP:CONSENSUS so far is that it isn't necessary or properly cited? Turnagra (talk) 08:42, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Very well. However, I have to disagree with your statement based on my sources. They still refer to the island as both K'gari and Fraser Island which affirms what I'm saying. That, to me, is evidence enough that Fraser Island is and will continue to be part of the social discussion for many years to come. Social discourse isn't something you can vote on, legislate or edit, otherwise it's akin to a totalitarian society. It isn't racist or wrong to refer to the former name in social discourse either. I have changed my statement to reflect that some people (instead of many people) still refer to the former name. Ash Kuss (talk) 09:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ash.david, please stop adding this text to the article, unless you can provide a reliable source that supports it. Regardless of whether something is true or not, it must be verifiable to be included on Wikipedia, and the source you have provided still does not support the claim you are adding, even in your most recent edit. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 13:45, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Tol, I have in good faith provided a source of the UNESCO website that uses both names of the island. I am unsure of what "verifiable source" you are after. I have come to the table by providing a source and making a change to my statement to seem more inclusive and less pointed. I would be happy to include a particular type of source that you suggest, if it can be found. I look forward to your collaboration. Ash Kuss (talk) 13:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ash.david, nowhere in the UNESCO reference can I find any text supporting the statement that "some people still refer to it as Fraser Island". In relation to naming, the source would only support the statement that UNESCO uses both names. To add text on how the island is commonly named, such information must be specifically found in reliable sources (for example, a source stating "most locals refer to the island as 'Fraser Island'"). Tol (talk | contribs) @ 14:55, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

In a previous edit, I also had a few other sources that referred to using both names, making it part of common public discourse. This is all we are trying to prove here. Some call it Fraser Island, some call it K'gari. Some call it both. This is not racist. It is not wrong. It's just how it is mate. Ash Kuss (talk) 15:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, nowhere did I say "most" local refer to Fraser Island, I initially said "many" locals do, which although truthful, I admit may come across as racially pointed so I changed it to some people do. Ash Kuss (talk) 15:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The reliable source is the Queensland government, who happen to have the mandate that allows for the altering of place names in the state. The government has legally changed the name, and it is verifiable as fact: https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/land/title/place-names/queensland-place-names-search Fourixxxx (talk) 07:00, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The Queensland Government has changed colonial names of many places to indigenous ones without the consent of the general public because "Virtue signalling, yay!". Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. And in any case, you can't stop its use in general discourse. So I emphasise again that some people call it by its popular name, Fraser, and some people call it by it's now official name, K'Gari. Both are legitimate names for the island. This is not racist, nor is it wrong. There can be plurality here, even when the Government is trying to legislate it out. Ash Kuss (talk) 05:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

The general public did consent to this because they voted in a government last election that took activist positions on name changing to recognise the original Indigenous names. Sad to see that your level of understanding of our indirect democracy system of government is poorer than a Year 6 social-studies student.

And inb4 the "but that's undemocratic", then so is every other piece of legislation passed without a statewide referendum. But I don't see you campaigning on changing QLD to a direct democracy system, so I can only conclude that your arguments made on the basis of "democracy" is done either out of ignorance, idiocy or bad faith. LStravaganz (talk) 12:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Hey primary-school social-studies student, one comment is enough. Ash Kuss (talk) 06:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

The island is now unambiguously known as K'gari

This is identified and verifiable by the Queensland government as such, without any reference to Fraser Island: https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/land/title/place-names/queensland-place-names-search

All such references to Fraser Island should be made in an historical context, include personal experiences. There is no cause to prevent these references, and no attempt is being made to hide history. The title change is a simple statement of fact, whether one agrees with the new name or not.

We cannot detract from the accuracy of the name in the article because the island is referred to by a previous name "by many". This is anecdotal, definitely not verifiable and cannot be used as justification as opposition to something made legal. Fourixxxx (talk) 06:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, K'Gari is the official name. However, Wikipedia (and hence its contributors) serve its readers rather than the QLD Govt and so has a policy WP:COMMONNAME which directs us to use the name the reader is most likely to expect/use. Obviously what it is most commonly known as will be a matter of some dispute, but locals are probably more aware of this recent name change than those further afield, e.g. other countries. So, if you read earlier discussion on this Talk page, the current balance of opinion is that Fraser Island is still the common name. I expect that this will change over time when the name K'Gari becomes more widely known, but there's 100+ years of the use of Fraser Island to contend with. I note the article Uluru uses that name rather than Ayers Rock as an example of a similar name change, so change is possible. But, as a counter-example, the article about the Italian city of Firenze is called Florence on English Wikipedia reflecting the common name used by English speakers and how entrenched names can be. I note all of these articles commence with a explanation of the dual names, so we are doing what we can to educate the reader. Kerry (talk) 09:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Once again, there is a failure to provide any evidence to back up these statements - anecdotal evidence does not constitute a valid source. A simple rebuttal would be that there are thousands of years of the use of K'gari to content with. Uluru is exactly a case in point, where "100+ years of the use" cannot be used as an excuse to cling on to an offensive moniker.

How often does one say they are going to Straddie, yet the article title is "Stradbroke Island" - in fact probably "North Stradbroke Island"? In this instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:COMMONNAME policy hasn't been applied.

If you really wanted to "educate the reader" you would highlight the offensiveness of using the former name inappropriately as it does represent hundreds of years of oppression of the local community, who fought tirelessly for this name change. Fourixxxx (talk) 02:10, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Kerry is correct. K'Gari is the official name, but Fraser is still commonly used and will be so for some time to come. In addition, we cannot detract from the accuracy of the article because certain elected officials imposed a name change on the island without a majority of Queensland's consent. The article should, if it has that kind of information, have the name the place is officially known by, and also the name used in popular discourse. Otherwise, it's missing valuable information of its colonial history, which does a disservice to the reader. Ash Kuss (talk) 15:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Once again @Ash.david whether you like it or not, the Queensland government was elected by the majority of Queenslanders and, as such, have a mandate by the majority of Queenslanders to perform such actions as name changes. The Butchulla people most definitely were not consulted when the name was changed to "Fraser Island".

So, in so much as there are footnotes about the colonial history and name of the island, you should not be attempting to glorify it. Fourixxxx (talk) 02:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Your argument that the colonial name is 'offensive' to you is not a valid reason to not educate the reader properly on official and popular names of the island. Fraser Island is in Queensland, Queensland is in Australia which is a democratic nation. The majority of Queenslanders were not consulted on the name change last year, nor were a bunch of other needless name changes to landmarks and locations. I see you have also changed the name of the article without consensus. This is inappropriate and will be undone in due course. You do not get to spout politically (or racially) charged misinformation because you hate colonial history, especially when people get to have a say as a result of it. Show respect where it's due. Colonial history, along with indigenous history, is Australian history. No amount of deletage will change this. Ash Kuss (talk) 03:48, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Your argument that the colonial name is used by your mate "John" is also not valid. The name was democratically changed through consultation receiving nearly 6000 submissions, making it the largest place name consultation undertaken in Queensland's history.

Once again, The Butchulla people most definitely did not receive this same courtesy over 100 years ago, or any time since.

And yes, I agree colonialism is history, as is the name of K'gari - and as history is has no place in modern discourse. However, references should be left to demonstrate the mistakes of our past. Much as Germany teaches about the Holocaust, we should also learn about our shame of colonialism and brutal mistreatment of the native peoples of this great land.

You don't get to continue to spew your (Personal attack removed) because you disagree with decision made by a democratically elected government - as you so pointed out. Fourixxxx (talk) 04:57, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I think both of you need to calm down.

@Fourixxxx, I agree that the title of the article should probably be K'gari by now, but how you've gone about it is not the way to go about it. If you look across the rest of the talk page, you'll see that this is a contentious topic and needs a formal move request. I'm aware that you've cited WP:RMUM in the move note, but I'd point out that yours was the undiscussed move. That guideline also states if you make a bold move and it is reverted, do not make the move again. I would suggest looking at the arguments which have been used in the past, and calmly explaining your rationale as to why you think these don't apply any longer, along with why you think that Wikipedia's policies and guidelines (particularly those on article titles), support the name K'gari over the name Fraser Island.

@Ash.david, you've been repeatedly told that there is not consensus for the content you've added to the article. Rather than persistently trying to add it back, I would strongly suggest that you explain why you think the content is needed, and why you think that the current article content does not cover it. I would also strongly suggest that you reflect back on your previous temporary blocks for edit warring around this exact thing before wholesale reverting the edits of others.

Now, I don't believe I'll be able to revert the move back to the stable title as I lack the necessary permissions when it's a redirect with history, but I strongly suggest that everyone backs off for a bit, has a cuppa, and comes back at a later date with some solid policy-based arguments if you still feel that your point needs to be heard. Turnagra (talk) 06:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I've restored it - no special permissions were needed. BilledMammal (talk) 06:28, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the restoration. Common sense prevails. Ash Kuss (talk) 06:34, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@Turnagra every time we've approached the subject the idea has been drowned out by a vocal minority who are dictated by their emotional connection, that to the actual facts.

Unfortunately, the "correct way" has seen a longer process than the actual government took to rename the island - as is evidenced by this discussion. Fourixxxx (talk) 07:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Again, I totally agree and I think that some people are letting their ideological views get in the way of actually looking at what is the best title for the article. But a back and forth move war isn't going to accomplish anything other than you likely having administrative action taken against you. Turnagra (talk) 07:30, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Very well, I appreciate a voice of common sense in a sea of loud conservative mindsets. I'll push for this discussion an request a formal moved as there is little reason for it remain as its former name. Fourixxxx (talk) 07:38, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

That sounds like a good call. As mentioned above, I would suggest looking over the above discussions and the relevant guidelines around article titles to help make your case stronger and address previous concerns which people have had. I'm happy to assist where I can if you need a hand navigating them, just let me know. Turnagra (talk) 07:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

"Once again, the Butchulla people most definitely did not receive this same courtesy over 100 years ago, or any time since."

Racism, through the virtue of signalling state government without proper consultation of the Queensland people does not make Fraser's name change right. It's still wrong. It's also racist to insist people only use the "official" name and not the popular name still commonly used by many Queenslanders.

"And yes, I agree colonialism is history, as is the name of K'gari, and as history is has no place in modern discourse. However, references should be left to demonstrate the mistakes of our past." Good, I'm glad you agree that colonialism is history. It is, however, bold (and sad) of you to assume it doesn't have a place in modern discourse. Here's why: i. You're referring to K'gari with Latin characters used in the English alphabet. Let's face it, if it weren't for Britain colonising Australia, you wouldn't be typing up angry, politicised comments about it. You wouldn't be using the native name of the island at all, and my guess is that many wouldn't care either. ii. The fact that you're referring to Australia as a great land. Without colonisation, you'd have hundreds of micronations, some of which would probably be at war with one another, fighting each other over land disputes. Today, you get to have discourse, albeit heated at times, about our nation's affairs and how we can move forward as one unified Australia, and not have everyone fend for themselves. You have colonialism (and subsequent democracy) to thank for that.

Colonialism was not a mistake. I concede that it made some horrible mistakes, but to assert that colonialism as a whole was a mistake is intellectually dishonest. Many of us are stolen generations of people, either from first nations or from Europe, but we're here now and many of us identify as Australian. You do not see King Charlie coming to apologise for what his ancestors did a long time ago. I think we'd be waiting a long time for something that's never going to happen there. Let's not forget history but instead keep it in perspective here. "You don't get to continue to spew your racist vitriol because you disagree with decisions made by a democratically elected government - as you so pointed out." The democratically elected government usually has a public consultation for these types of decisions. Having the indigenous name alongside the common name was fine, until the common name was dropped. The government, acting like a nanny state, along with some (but not all) of the indigenous peoples, decided they knew what was best and went ahead with it anyway. This is in spite of the fact that they likely knew many Queenslanders would disagree with this decision and that their hard-earned taxpayer dollars would go towards making that happen. So again, let's keep history in perspective here. We elect a government to represent its people within the respective lands and jurisdictions it governs. We do not elect it to turn us into a sorry state because of what happened hundreds of years ago. We are proud Australians, no matter what faith, background, story or ethnicity we might have. All of us together, not a select group of people, make up Australia. For many of us, the island will still be Fraser. For others, it's K'gari. Either is okay. No amount of deletage by the Palaszczuk/Miles government will change that.

Ash Kuss (talk) 07:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I know I'm a bit late to the discussion, but I would support using "K'gari" over Fraser Island as most media outlets (including Sky News of all outlets) use "K'gari" – I made a list on voy:Talk:K'gari a while back and would argue the same applies here. --SHB2000 (talk) 01:42, 6 April 2024 (UTC)