Talk:Henry Clay

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this is just a comment[edit]

Henry Clay was Speaker of the House, as discussed in the text. The side panel shows him as a Senator, which is not correct. I tried editing the side panel, but those lines are links. 2600:1700:4000:C950:FD80:AFFD:1A0F:9158 (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Henry Clay had a long and varied political career. He was indeed Speaker of the House from March 4, 1811 – January 19, 1814, March 4, 1815 – October 28, 1820, and from March 4, 1823 – March 3, 1825, but you are mistaken that he was not also a US Senator. He did serve as a US Senator, his terms being December 29, 1806 – March 3, 1807, January 4, 1810 – March 3, 1811, November 10, 1831 – March 31, 1842, and March 4, 1849 – June 29, 1852. The article itself is very instructive and chock-full of references on these matters. Shearonink (talk) 21:00, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Speaker of the House in the Infobox...[edit]

Henry Clay was Speaker of the house a total of 6 different times:

12th Congress - 1811-1813
13th Congress - 1813-1814
14th Congress - 1815-1817
15th Congress - 1817-1819
16th Congress - 1819-1820
18th Congress - 1823-1825

To have his last Speakership (1823-1825) as the title of that subsection and then to list out only 3 of his Speakership terms doesn't seem to be completely correct. GoodDay, what do you think? Shearonink (talk) 15:42, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I maybe should have phrased that as "he served [or was elected] a total of 6 times to the Speakership in 6 separate Congresses". Shearonink (talk) 15:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The current version is best. We wouldn't for example, write out 'each' of US President Franklin D. Roosevelt's terms (i.e 1933-1937, 1937-1941, 1941-1945 & 1945) in the infobox. No would we do so with Presidents pro-tempore of the Senate. GoodDay (talk) 15:50, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I get your point about FDR and also about consecutive terms - that makes sense. Elections where the person keeps their previous office aren't counted as separate numbered terms. However, it seems like WP is leaving out some important facts of Clay's public service (See https://history.house.gov/People/Detail/11051 and https://history.house.gov/People/Office/Speakers_Numerical_Order/). He didn't *just* serve as the Speaker once as the sub-section's title seems to imply. And actually saying he was the "7th" isn't correct. He was the 8th Speaker (1811-1814), 10th Speaker (1815-1820), and 13th (1823-1825) - per List of speakers of the United States House of Representatives. Shearonink (talk) 16:14, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The current form is correct & Speakers of the US House are counted only once, whether they've served consecutive tenures or not. Reliable sources (for example) describe Paul Ryan as the 54th (not 62nd) Speaker. The list article you mentioned, isn't numbering the speakers. It's only pointing out the Congresses. GoodDay (talk) 17:19, 2 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I know about the different Congresses but that wasn't my point, I was (mistakenly? oh the horror!) counting each instance as being a separate Speakership, each time someone different was Speaker being a different designation. Really? Saying someone is the [whatever numbered designation] regarding the number of people who have served as Speaker. That doesn't make sense to me...Muhlenberg, for instance, was the 1st Speaker and the 3rd Speaker...they were 2 different elections and he held the position at 2 different times. But he is only counted as the first Speaker? US Presidents aren't counted once when they serve non-consecutive terms...Grover Cleveland, served two non-consecutive terms so he's the 22nd as well as the 24th President. Odd. If this confusion over how the Speakership is counted is something that occurs occasionally with people trying to change the numbering, then perhaps going forward a Note here at the Clay article explaining the vagaries of how the Speakership is numbered would be helpful. Cheers, Shearonink (talk) 05:44, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Enslavement[edit]

Some sources have taken to a novel overuse of the verb "enslave", and if quoted directly or carelessly paraphrased, could cause misleading statements to be made. This article contained a statement that Clay enslaved 120 people, which is dubious. The cited source makes reference to purchase of such men and women, which by definition means they were enslaved by someone else. Enslavement and the buying of slaves are certainly both reprehensible, but they are distinct. 2600:1700:6795:3010:A426:CD86:98DB:4972 (talk) 19:35, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]