Talk:Henri Fayol

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment[edit]

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 January 2020 and 24 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Rosslocascio22. Peer reviewers: Jhclark3456, Cfreeman444.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:20, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PLagiarism[edit]

THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN PLAGARISED FROM http://www.analytictech.com/mb021/fayol.htm PLEASE GIVE CREDIT EmileVictor 08:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although the information on the above site is the same as that show in wikipedia, the said information is regarded as common knowledge conserning Fayol, it is infact published in his book. Therefore this is not plagarism. (C. White 26/3/07)

Well, it wasn't worth translating this very dense piece of writing if 75% of it was to be considered POV and removed. ;-) --Valmi 18:57, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

So it goes. When I skimmed the French it looked pretty appropriate, but I hadn't read it closely. Upon reading your translation, I found that it was mostly unencyclopedic.

If it's any consolation, I once spent about 8 hours translating a lengthy article from Romanian, only to discover it was a copyvio. -- Jmabel 20:40, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)

I am sure you significantly improved your Romanian skills! --Valmi 01:45, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It is a shame that there is no Henri Fayol's article in the French version.

Did you have a look at fr:Fayolisme#Bibliographie? -- Silwilhith (talk) 08:12, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Principles are not representative of what Fayol wrote[edit]

If you read the original text you will see that the principles Fayol recommended were indeed principles and not rules written in stone. It is clearly not the intension of Fayol to declare e.g. that, as here quoted, that decisions are made from the top and that is it. Fayol explains in great detail that any organisation must have some measure of centralization in order to operate effectivly. Indeed decentralization is also a consequence of Fayol's principles. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.63.55.120 (talk) 15:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC).its me the foyal it all management[reply]

I do not understand the purpose here of the table of the 14 principle "then and now". Firstly because many of the "then principle" are not those written by Fayol. And secondly because in what sense does it helps for understanding Fayol to say that everything he said has been now denied ? Silwilhith (talk) 04:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Socrates[edit]

It is patently not the case that Socrates, who lived 2000 years before management or corporations, "suggested that management is a universal human activity that applies equally well to the family as it does to the corporation." I have deleted the reference. Deipnosophista 15:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I beg to differ, he may not have written it specifically but if you read the somewhat disorganized eight books of Politics, it is a notion that becomes apparent. I believe he wrote specifically about a shoe making operation in Greece, but of that I am not certain.

--David Igra (talk) 01:00, 4 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding F.W.Taylor[edit]

I must double-check how Coubrough (1930) and Storrs (1961) have translated this part but it is clear, in the French version, that Fayol was quoting a recent publication of Taylor when he wrote

"each worker, instead of being in immediate contact with the Direction by a single point, that is by his/her team leader, receives directly his/her daily order and help from eight different chiefs, each of them fulfilling a particular function"

According to the French edition, the here above sentence was written by F.W.Taylor himself in La Direction des Ateliers, Paris: Dunod et Pinat, 1913, page 59.

BTW I guess this publication was initially written in English and its original source would help.

” Those eight, Fayol said, were (1) route clerks...” must be therefore read ” Those eight, Fayol said quoting Taylor, were (1) route clerks...”

Further in the chapter, Fayol reckons 1°) "the necessity to reinforce the workshop managers and foremen with a general staff" made of specialists as suggested by Taylor but denies any quality to 2°) the "negation of unity of command" proposed by Taylor. Fayol even finds this 2nd proposition of Taylor "wrong and dangerous".

However, further in the text, Fayol reckons that Taylor, despite this negation of unity of command, was able to successfully manage some big undertaking. And Fayol admits he cannot understand/explain this contradiction.

Silwilhith (talk) 04:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved Henri Fayol to Henri Fayol and the Administrative theory ??[edit]

This article is moved on 3 March 2009 21:58 by User:K5a5p from Henri Fayol to Henri Fayol and the Administrative theory. I think this should not have happened here. It is unacceptable. The subject of Henri Fayol is more then notable enough to deserve an article of it's own.

I propose:

The article first will be moved back to restore the history of this article
A new article Henri Fayol to Henri Fayol and the Administrative theory can be created that contains most of the 3 March article.
The Henri Fayol can be restored in the 3 March version, where the biograpical part is practically a stub. Looking at the French and German article it is clear it doesn't have to be that way.
Both article can be further improved.

Wikipedia has biographical and thematical articles. Changing an biographical into a thematical article is poluting the clear structure of Wikipedia.

Now don't get me wrong here. I don't disapprove with the expantion of the article. I consider moving the original article an administrative irregularity. This article should be split from the original article, so that the history of the article Henri Fayol article remains intact.

-- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 11:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored the pre-move (3 March) version to this page, and the latest to the Administrative theory page. EyeSerene^talk 20:59, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I just logged on and noticed. Thanks very much. I guess you are done now. So I will continue wikifying both articles. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 21:00, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome - all the best with the article's development. EyeSerene^talk 21:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I recreated this biographical article, and restructure the theoretical article under the name Fayolism. I think it will do for now. Both articles can be developed separatly now. -- Marcel Douwe Dekker (talk) 22:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very good idea. More clear like this. Thanks for the move. -- Silwilhith (talk) 00:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Books in French[edit]

Fayol, Henri (1900), Bassins houillers de Commentry et de Decazeville, excursion sous la conduite de M. H. Fayol (in French), Paris, OCLC 457845504
Fayol, Henri (1916), Administration industrielle et générale; prévoyance, organisation, commandement, coordination, controle (in French), Paris, H. Dunod et E. Pinat, OCLC 40204128
Fayol, Henri (1918), Notice sur les travaux scientifiques et techniques (in French), Gauthier, OCLC 40327621
Fayol, Henri (1921), L'Incapacité industrielle de l'État: Les P. T. T (in French), Paris Dunod, OCLC 162901547
Fayol, Henri 1923. La réforme administrative des PTT, tiré à part, Dunod, 1923.
de Calan, Pierre; Fayol, Henri (1963), Renaissance des libertés économiques et sociales (in French), Plon, OCLC 420135393

Articles in French, a selection

Fayol H., « Note sur le boisage aux houillères de Commentry (emploi du fer et des bois préparés) », Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, 2e série tome III, 1874, p. 569.
Fayol H., « Guidage des puits de mine », Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, 2e série tome VI, 1877, p. 697.
Fayol H., « Note sur le boisage, le déboisage et le remblayage dans les houillères de Commentry », Comptes rendus mensuels de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, juin 1878.
Fayol H., « Études sur l'altération et la combustion spontanée de la houille exposée à l'air », Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, congrès de Paris 1878, médaille d'or, 2e série tome VIII, 1878, p. 487-746.
Fayol H., « Étude sur le terrain houiller de Commentry », Comptes rendus des séances de l’Académie des Sciences, 16 mai 1881.
Fayol H., « Sur le terrain houiller de Commentry, Expériences faites pour expliquer la formation », Comptes rendus des séances de l’Académie des Sciences, 30 mai 1881.
Fayol H., « Étude sur le terrain houiller de Commentry, sa formation attribuée à un charriage dans un lac profond », Comptes rendus des séances de l’Académie des Sciences, 20 juin 1881.
Fayol H., « Sur l’origine des troncs d’arbres fossiles perpendiculaires aux strates du terrain houiller », Comptes rendus des séances de l’Académie des Sciences, 18 juillet 1881.
Fayol H., « Note sur la suppression du poste de nuit dans le remblayage des grandes couches », Comptes rendus mensuels de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, octobre 1882.
Fayol H., « Note sur les mouvements de terrain provoqués par l'exploitation des mines », Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, 2e série tome XIV, 1885, p. 805.
Fayol H., Launay L. de, Meunier S., « Lithologie et stratigraphie, Étude sur le terrain houiller de Commentry », Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, 2° série, tome XV, 1886, réédité en 1887 en ouvrage séparé, tome I de trois portant le titres commun : Études sur le terrain houiller de Commentry. Le volume II (1890) porte le sous titre Flore fossile par Bernard Renault et René Zeiller. Le volume III (1888) porte le sous titre Faune ichtyologique et entomologique, par Charles Brongniart, Émile Sauvage.
Fayol H., « Résumé de la théorie des deltas et histoire de la formation du bassin de Commentry », Bulletin de la Société Géologique de France, août 1888.
Fayol H., « Séance solennelle de clôture du congrès de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale à Paris », samedi 23 juin 1900, Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, N° 15, 1901, p. 759-768.
Fayol H., « Le cinquantenaire de la société Commentry-Fourchambault et Decazeville », Comptes rendus mensuels des réunions de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, congrès de Saint Étienne, 16 juin 1908, p. 240-242.,
Fayol H., « Administration industrielle et générale », Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, N° 10, 1916, p. 5-164. Réédité 13 fois chez Dunod.
Fayol H., « De l’importance de la fonction administrative dans le gouvernement des affaires », conférence faite à la Société d’encouragement pour l’industrie nationale (séance du 24 novembre 1917), Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, N° 12, 1917, p. 225-67.
Fayol H., « Discussion sur l’enseignement technique supérieur », extrait des procès verbaux de la Société des Ingénieurs Civils de France, séance du 30 mars 1917, 16 pages, et Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, N° 12, 1917, p. 272-321.
Fayol H., « Préface à Administration industrielle et générale, l’éveil de l’esprit public », études publiées sous la direction de Henri Fayol, Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, N° 12, 1917, p. 145-152. édité en livre sous le titre L’éveil de l’esprit public chez Dunod et Pinat en 1918.
Fayol H., « La réforme administrative des administrations publiques », Commerce et Industrie, revue pratique des méthodes modernes en affaires, janvier, 1918, p. 3-9.
Fayol H., « L’administration positive dans l’industrie », La Technique Moderne, février, 1918, p. 73-75.
Fayol H., « L’industrialisation de l’État », conférence faite le 24 octobre 1918, Bulletin de la Société de l’Industrie Minérale, N° 15, 1919, p. 237-74.
Fayol H., Préface à l’ouvrage de Albert Schatz L’entreprise gouvernementale et son administration, Grasset, 1922.
Fayol H., Conférence sur l’Administration industrielle et générale, École supérieure de guerre et Centre des Hautes Études Militaires, 5 et 14 mai 1923.
Fayol H., « La doctrine administrative dans l’État », conférence au 2° congrès international de Sciences Administratives, réédité en 1966 dans Revue Internationale des Sciences Administratives, Vol. XXXII, N°2, 1923, p. 114-133.
Fayol H., « Un entretien avec M. Fayol, la gestion des entreprises et l’outillage administratif », signé L. M. du Crouzet, La Chronique Sociale de France, janvier 1925, p. 10-26.
Fayol H., « Note de M. Fayol sur le Rapport présenté par M. André Citroën au nom de la commission chargée d’étudier les questions concernant l’organisation et le fonctionnement du monopole des tabacs et des allumettes », Annexe C du rapport de André Citroën, 1925, p. 163-174.

Further comment[edit]

In this form this listing has little added value, and is removed to the talk page. -- Mdd (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How many principles?[edit]

The Work, Fayolism chapter presents five primary functions of mgmt, but later goes on to say that Daft reduced Fayol's six principles to five (citing different keywords 3 and 4/5). -- G Halbo 9:34, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Article should use the correct translation of 'contrôler' rather than the customary but mistaken one[edit]

The article gets ten out of ten for describing the issue with the mistranslation by an early (and perhaps the only) translator of the word contrôler, which has been copied by others ever since. Rather than repeating this mistake yet again, would it not be better to use the word "Checking" as the correct translation, rather than "Controlling"? In my opinion this is a vital point - organisations that do not get feedback and check things cannot adapt and repair and are Zombie organisations that slowly wither and die. 92.24.178.164 (talk) 15:49, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Date of Photo[edit]

Editor 99.225.8.135 changed the caption from "Henri Fayol 1910 (at the age of 70)" to "Henri Fayol 1890(at the age of 70)" (in 1890 Fayol would have been 49 years old. The wikimedia commons page says only "early 20th century photograph (first version found online at centre-histoire.sciences-po.fr)." I propose eliminating the date and the assumed age, and merely give the name, which is in accord with the practice of the French, German, and Italian pages. The date change seems to have been an act of vandalism and no sources were cited. Vagabond nanoda (talk) 09:10, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]