Talk:Richard Mentor Johnson

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Good articleRichard Mentor Johnson has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
On this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 3, 2008Good article nomineeListed
February 5, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
April 3, 2008Featured article candidateNot promoted
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on February 8, 2011, February 8, 2016, February 8, 2019, and February 8, 2021.
Current status: Good article

older entries[edit]

Vice President of the United States says he was a Democrat; this says he was a Democrat-Republican. Which is it? --Golbez 06:37, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Democratic-Republican is the correct term for the party of the time, this party would be more similar to the Democratic party of today than to the Republican party, which would be more similar to the Whig party of the time of Richard Johnson. AG

Um, not quite ... he started his career as a Democratic-Republican; once that party broke up in the 1820s, he aligned himself with Jackson's faction, which was known as the Democratic Party by the time of his Vice-Presidency. I'm adding the Democratic designation to his infobox in line with the style for Van Buren, his predecessor in the vice presidency. --Jfruh (talk) 16:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This reference states that after his first two wives died, he took Julia Chin as his common law wife. Who were his first two wives and what is the source referenced for that information? AG 5-Aug 2005

Never Married[edit]

Richard Mentor Johnson never married. I've read many references that say he had a long-term relationship with a family's slave, Julia Chinn. He had two daughter with her that he married into white society. After Julia's death he had a relationship with another slave that ended badly--he sold her at auction. I live in his home county, Scott County KY. Our library has many sources for this information.--FloNight 04:55, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Career[edit]

Please expand, he must have had other careers than a barman.

The Ronin 16:22, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So who was his rival for election "with Johnson becoming vice-president by a vote of 36 to 16"? Who got the 16? talk 16:01 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup[edit]

Added material on Johnson's interracial relationship and its political effects; deleted unnecessary links; other tweaks.

I expanded the discussion of Johnson's interracial relationship, explaining that it was, very unusually, overt, and that it was notorious, with an example. I also explained exactly how this affected his political career in 1836-1840.

Also, the quoted version of his "election slogan" was incomplete.

Finally, every date and year mentioned was a link, which is not appropriate.

I added links to US Vice President and to some other references that might require explanation.

--Rich Rostrom 04:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

On balance, I am happy to pass this article as a GA. It is decently written, well-sourced with a wide range of references and appears to conform to all other guidelines. Should the authors wish to take the article further, I would suggest obtaining at least one thorough copyedit, as the prose is not of the brillant standard required by FA. One other minor problem is that the article includes several unecessary links (e.g. riot). Otherwise this is a very nice article, well done.--Jackyd101 (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Non promotion[edit]

Don't worry about it too much; FA operates on a tight schedule, and it will take you a while to absorb the unsolicited advice. Come badk when you're done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be happy to help as I can also. It's got the makings of a very nice article, and I enjoyed learning about his life. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

I have access to the 1833 life by Emmons, and the 1843 by "a Kentuckian". (Meyers is out.) Both are manifestly campaign biographies, and of limited reliability; but they are not the same book, and both should be consulted, although not trusted (Johnson's publicity is part of the subject here). ANB and Pratt may be the best modern biographies. Good luck. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that information. I've requested the Pratt biography on Interlibrary Loan. Did you have any luck digging up the reprint of the "Father of American Cavalry" article? If not, I can request the book in which it was reprinted on ILL as well. I located it in several libraries within 100 miles of me. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 23:43, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Pratt does contain the Cavalry article, according to the copyright page (or do you mean Meyers?).Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I meant the Pratt work. I'll try to get that on ILL. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just got Life and Times on ILL for about a month. (Thanks U of L libraries!) I'm going to try and get the article in shape over the next two weeks. That leaves another two weeks for the FA nom to pass or fail before I have to return the book. I've also requested the Pratt work on ILL. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bibliography[edit]

Would anybody mind if I redid the format: I dislike two results of {{cite book}}: Last names should be second, so we can link, and dates should not be third unless we expect, as we do not here, two different sources by the same author?

FA shouldn't mind as long as we are consistent; cite templates are not required.

If I can change, I would like to do so before I add Pratt. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:34, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Last names should be second, so we can link." I assume you are talking about something that can't be done using the authorlink argument to {{cite book}}? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, something much simpler than authorlink: Fletcher Pratt, Eleven Generals; Studies in American Command, William Sloane Assoc., (1949): "Richard M. Johnson: Rumpsey-Dumpsey", the fourth chapter, pp. 81–97. No masking, no template, just straightforward formatting. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If it doesn't bother FA reviewers, it doesn't bother me. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 19:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer Chicago style, which looks more professional on history articles, but since there are about 100 different citation styles used on Wikipedia—many of them seemingly invented on the spot—I don't think it really matters that much, as long as the needed information is there. —Kevin Myers 06:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meyer[edit]

Congratulations.

What does Meyer say about

  • Johnson's birthdate
  • When he entered Transylvania (Pratt says 1796)
  • When he left (Emmons says he began studying law with George Nicholas after he left the University, a few weeks before Nicholas' death, i.e. spring 1799.)

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For comparison, Edgar J. McManus in ANB gives 1780 as the birth year (and not a more specific date), and about his schooling says, "It is not known what schools Johnson attended, but he managed to learn Latin and later studied law under George Nicholas and James Brown. After being admitted to the bar in 1802...." By the way, McManus says that Johnson was "the first native Kentuckian elected to the state legislature." —Kevin Myers 06:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Meyer doesn't give a date for Johnson's birth at all. He does say that Johnson's father learned of a raid bound for Louisville in summer 1780 and that must have caused him great anxiety because his wife was there awaiting the birth of their fifth child, Richard M. Johnson. Meyer also goes farther than McManus, saying Johnson was the first native Kentuckian elected to the state legislature, the national congress, and the vice-presidency. (p. 20)
Regarding his education, Meyer says:

Just what preparatory school he attended is a conjecture...Johnson read law under George Nicholas, who died shortly after he accepted a professorship in the law department of Transylvania Seminary. According to Robert B. McAfee...[Johnson] was reading law with the Honorable James Brown in Lexington in 1800...At this time, Brown was a professor in Transylvania's law department. Some writers state that Johnson "finished a classic and scientific education;" others, that he was a graduate of Transylvania. But the name of Richard M. Johnson does not appear in the list published in 1824, which names graduates from 1802 to that date, nor do the records of the old seminary, or those of the early university after the merger, give Richard's name.

What shall we make of that? Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 13:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That the birthdate, and the date his father moved to Kentucky, both vary among reliable sources. (Your quote from Meyer clearly implies 1780.) Avoiding the subject is probably in order; it really doesn't matter.
  • Johnson studied law under two men who were at the time Professors at the Seminary. There is no surviving record of his actually being enrolled, but those records are incomplete (the records after 1802 don't matter; we know he was out of school by then). Contemporary sources say he studied at the seminary before he studied law, which was not then normally done in school. (In short, this may be a slight exaggeration of his background; or it may be that the records have been lost.) Let me think to see what we can say. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possible sources[edit]

I'm going to my local college library this afternoon, and am going to try to pry out of JSTOR the following articles:

Also ran across these which aren't in JSTOR:

I may or may not be able to get all of these, the local university doesn't subscribe to all the journals in JSTOR. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh. Didn't get a single one. Sorry. I swear, this local college has the oddest choices in what they get from JSTOR and what they don't. I'll try to get to University of Illinois sometime. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What's the title/author/etc. on the dissertation? If that's on ProQuest, I might be able to get at it. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 17:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What's love got to do with it? The dynamics of desire, race and murder in the slave South by Powell, Carolyn Jean, Ph.D., University of Massachusetts Amherst, 2002, 213 pages; AAT 3039386. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Darn. We must not subscribe to the right journal to get that one. Too bad. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 17:44, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The summaries above are mine. Aside from the Baptist college (in Meyer) and the question of William Smith, I don't see much. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:20, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bryan Station[edit]

The article Bryan Station has an image that could be used here: the famous incident of the women going out of the fort to get the water. However, The Kentucky Encyclopdia entry on Bryan Station says (p. 134) that this story was "long believed true but now relegated to legend." Alas. —Kevin Myers 16:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great catch on both accounts. I think the incident still bears mention, even if we have to end it with "but this all proved to be legend." Wonder which source(s) TKE bases this on? Those sources might have additional pertinent details on this event. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 17:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
State historian James Klotter is supposed to be at my local library tonight. I hope to attend the appearance and see if I can ask him to clarify this point, since he was a co-editor for The Kentucky Encyclopedia. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's a popular legend; the DAR commissioned a memorial in the shape of a well as the site. I think a photo of this is with the WP article on Bryan's Station, Kentucky. I have a heroic woman of that group among my ancestors, too.Parkwells (talk) 15:12, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Red vest[edit]

I have expanded the information about Johnson's trademark red vest; I have seen it mentioned in multiple sources, so it was apparently significant. However, I don't believe the information belongs in the lead, where it is presently located. I'm open for suggestions as to where it should go. Either discuss them here, or be bold and move it to a new location. Thanks. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 12:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed North Pole expedition[edit]

Time Magazine recently did a feature on the "15 Worst Vice Presidents" in United States history, and Johnson had the misfortune to make the list. Something in the article that I found quite fascinating was a mention that while in office Johnson proposed an expedition to the North Pole for the purposes of drilling a hole to the center of the earth. I'm not sure I understand the supposed physics behind the idea, but to me this seems like a very colorful story, and perhaps someone who knows this article better than I do could find a way to add it in, perhaps with additional explanation beyond what is provided in Time. [1] Adlerschloß (talk) 05:07, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article already mentions this, minus the reference to the North Pole. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 00:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I didn't see that there. Adlerschloß (talk) 01:48, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I flagged as dubious the statement "The proposal was soundly defeated, receiving only twenty-five votes." about his 1823 proposal since according to List of U.S. states by date of statehood there were 24 states (and 48 senators?) in 1823. Can anyone check this in the source?Langhorner (talk) 17:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to check that out if I can get to the library. I added the fact, and I know the book came from my local library. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 20:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Better late than never. The source says: "Johnson even tried to persuade Congress to pass a bill that would fund an expedition to the center of the earth. The bill received only twenty-five votes and was soundly defeated." The implication seems to be that it garnered only twenty-five votes in Congress, which probably indicates the Congress as a whole (House and Senate combined.) Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 18:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Crittenden's Resignation[edit]

In the intro, it says Johnson was chosen US senator to replace John Crittenden in 1819 when the latter resigned to become attorney general. However, Crittenden didn't become AG until 1841 (& again in 1850). The Crittenden article confirms this and goes on to say that he resigned in 1819 because he found state politics more interesting than that of Washington. Please consider a rewrite of the phrase about the resignation.

Smallfixer (talk) 18:27, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Slave Auction[edit]

In the section on his relationship with Julia Chinn, the article links "sold at auction" to the article "Slave auction." But this does not appear to be the correct type of slave auction, as it is redirected to the page on charity slave auctions. There is an italic link from there to the page on "Slavery," but I think this is where the link should actually go in the first place. IrishCowboy (talk) 13:21, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch. Fixed. I think this link has changed since I first added it to this article. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:13, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Marital Status (Common-Law)[edit]

I'm not fond of the way that the info box lists Johnson as unmarried, so I edited it. Before 1852, Kentucky recognized common-law marriage. If Julia Chinn is Johnson's common-law wife, then he is not unmarried. I looked, and I don't think Wikipedia has a policy on how to handle common law marriage. Debbie W. 04:32, 19 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dwainwr123 (talk • contribs)

Agree - this was the reality, as were his two acknowledged daughters.Parkwells (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should we refer to Julia Chinn as a wife[edit]

While in many ways Julia Chinn was treated by Johnson as a common-law-wife, she was clearly not leagally acknowledged as such. I am torn on how best to consider this matter.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:12, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence indicates that Johnson treated her as his wife. I would say we should do the same in the infobox and lede, since the entire tragic situation is clarified in the article. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:51, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's been a while since I worked on this article, but I tend to remember the sources saying she was his common law wife, not just that he treated her as such. That said, I'm not sure it was truly a legal arrangement, since the law may have prevented interracial marriage at that time. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 15:56, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The law likely prohibited interracial marriage, but I wonder why he didn't free Julia Chinn and, especially their daughters. He was open about them and probably could have gotten dispensation from the legislature if he needed it. If KY law was like VA's, the daughters would have been considered "born into slavery" because their mother was a slave, putting them at risk for their entire lives, regardless of their appearance and the status of their father. He seemed to care for them, so he should have freed them. In VA at the time, a person who was seven-eighths or more white was considered legally white under the law - meaning that, if free, Julia Chinn and her daughters (who were 15/16 white) would have been considered white, not black. I would imagine KY had similar laws and will try to find out. Johnson settled property on his daughters, but he also could have guaranteed their futures by freeing them. The fact that he took up with two other slave women after Chinn's death, and sold off one who chose another man, does make one wonder about him.Parkwells (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A biography from the late19th century makes the interesting point that the one who left him was no worse off; she was not 'sold south'. It was to a similar plantation to Johnson's where her life went on much as before. The motive for the sale was said to be not vengeance, but mainly to avoid embarrassment in daily life. 73.70.250.164 (talk) 04:50, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rhyme[edit]

The version I have seen is:

Ripsey Rampsey Rumpsey Dumpsey I, Dick Johnson Killed Tecumseh

Does anyone have a primary source for either this, or the version in the article? 73.70.250.164 (talk) 04:54, 9 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The version in the article has an in-line citation in the third paragraph under the Election of 1836 heading. I have also seen other versions of the rhyme in other sources. Acdixon (talk · contribs) 16:46, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Correct citation?[edit]

Footnotes 17 & 18 (as accessed 20 Feb 2021) cite "Great Mountain Freeman." Should this be "Green Mountain Freeman"? See https://www.loc.gov/item/sn84023209 --A12n (talk) 05:45, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The second of the two notes mentioned above has been corrected & enlinked. --A12n (talk) 18:54, 20 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Chinn family[edit]

The second paragraph of Marriage and family seems very confused and possibly from an unreliable source. It seems Daniel was living in Canada, not Benjamin, and Marcellus was his son, not his and Julia's brother. There's also a questionable reference to the Chinn family in the fifth paragraph. Dates are missing for the marriage to Julia and birth of their daughters, as well as his father's death. 174.67.226.163 (talk) 08:55, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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