Talk:Kingdom of Great Britain

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Ireland[edit]

Should Ireland be listed in "Today part of" in the Infobox? GamerKlim9716 (talk) 00:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why? This Kingdom never held areas in the Kingdom of Ireland. Ireland was a client state. Dimadick (talk) 04:37, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for clarifying. I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was fully integrated like Wales and Scotland. GamerKlim9716 (talk) 20:11, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ireland was "integrated" (annexed) in 1801, resulting in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (1801-1922). And the Irish Home Rule movement had emerged by the 1870s, influencing several of the political struggles of the late Victorian era. Dimadick (talk) 05:08, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

United Kingdom of Great Britain[edit]

According to the actual Acts of Union 1707, articles 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 22 and 24 all refer to the official name if the country being the “United Kingdom of Great Britain” with “Great Britain” for short but also sometimes uses “United Kingdom” for short.

I feel like the page should be reflected to say this as to claim Great Britain alone was the countries official name is misleading and false and the whole “Kingdom of Great Britain” thing is entirely fabricated as it is not referred to this anywhere in any official capacity. 2A02:C7C:A05A:BA00:2C9E:9922:2968:FCA0 (talk) 11:37, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Upon reading the archives I feel my argument is strengthened, there is absolutely no proof whatsoever of the “Kingdom of Great Britain” being used. Previous editors have debated this, claiming it was the official longform name of the country, however this is not mentioned ever, they even linked to The Times newspaper, but clicking on those links and going to said webpage makes no mention at all to the country let alone referring to its official name. In contrast the actual Acts of Union itself quite clearly state’s multiple times through capitalisation that the lomgform name is the “United Kingdom of Great Britain” with the only single reference to the later being “kingdom of Great Britain” which not being capitalised is clearly referring to the country of Great Britain being a kingdom rather than that being the actual name of the country. Also stated was the bizarre claim that “even the most Britain loving people” (or some along those lines) say that the United Kingdom was formed only in 1801. Well this is not true at all, as a British person most people consider and get taught that 1707 is the origin of this country, the Acts of Union that merged the former precursor countries together created the new one, adding Ireland in 1801 is just that, seen as simply adding a new member, with the flag being slightly changed to reflect this along with the addition of the “and Ireland”. Would that then mean that in 1922 a new country was formed when it became the “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” or that the United States of America became a new country every time it added a new state and star to its flag, nobody would claim either of these last two just as nobody here claims that the 1707 and 1801 unions are separate countries.

One of three things needs to happen in my opinion based on everyone’s feedback, opinions and evidence:

1. A credible source be provided to back up the Kingdom of Great Britain claim.

2. The page be changed to reflect the Acts of Union outright stating it’s the United Kingdom of Great Britain.

3. Any reference to a longform name be removed as a consensus can’t be reached with the country simply being referred to as Great Britain.

I say these three things not to sound forceful but because I believe it’s incredibly misleading to use the “Kingdom of Great Britain” as it’s not stated anywhere and Wikipedia is supposed to be fact based. However I am willing to be proven and accept I’m wrong should a credible source be found, a source that is somehow stronger and more credible than the Acts of Union itself. 2A02:C7C:A05A:BA00:2C9E:9922:2968:FCA0 (talk) 01:22, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

One final thing for now, I have found many sources. In the archives I noticed one editor who claimed to be a “historian” thus making his claim indispensable, the reason I mention this will become clear.

1. Newspaper Article (see fact 27): https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/9007300/Scottish-referendum-50-fascinating-facts-you-should-know-about-Scotland.html

2. ScotlandHistory: https://web.archive.org/web/20120102060414/http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/scotlandshistory/unioncrownsparliaments/unionofparliaments/index.asp

3. Historical Association I: https://web.archive.org/web/20110515023116/http://www.history.org.uk/resources/he_resource_730_9.html

4. BBC History: https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/acts_of_union_01.shtml

5. History of Parliament: https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/england-scotland-and-treaty-union-1706-08

6. The Constitution of the United Kingdom of Great Britain Paperback: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Constitution-United-Kingdom-Great-Britain/dp/1774261200

7. Historical Association II: https://www.history.org.uk/publications/resource/730/the-creation-of-the-united-kingdom-of-great-britai

8. Qualified Historian Philippa Lacey Brewell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeAllIr0es4

So it seems newspapers, the BBC, actual qualified historians and Parliament itself all seem to think it’s the “United Kingdom of Great Britain” this would be rather odd if they were all wrong and some randomer on the internet is correct, but again I’m willing to change my mind should a credible source great than all of these be found. 2A02:C7C:A05A:BA00:2C9E:9922:2968:FCA0 (talk) 02:02, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The best place to find the full, official name of a state is to look to its treaties. This is difficult for monarchies, especially before the age of constitutional monarchies, as treaties are made in the name of the monarch and not the state. In the most significant treaties where the name of the state is mentioned (Peace and Friendship Treaty of Utrecht between Spain and Great Britain (1713), Art. V; Peace and Friendship Treaty of Utrecht between France and Great Britain (1713), Art IV) it is refered to as the "kingdom of Great Britain." I have been unable to find any other treaty where the state is referred to as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain" or the "United Kingdom." However, the most telling reference that it was not to be called a united kingdom is the title of the king in all accounts. In every treaty the king is called "king of Great Britain" or "his Britannic Majesty." While one might say that this means nothing as it dosen't show the name of the state, it contrasts with later treaties. After the Acts of Union with Ireland, the king was always referred to as the "king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland," not "king of Great Britain and Ireland." This shows that the name of the kingdom was never intended to be the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in diplomatic contexts as it then chooses a messier phrasing. If it was always the United Kingdom, why was the extra wording put into the title of the king? I understand your point of view, but I believe that the Acts of Union refer to it as the United Kingdom as to differentiate it from England or Scotland (depending on which act of union is being referred to).
Respectfully, The Radioactive Box (talk) 03:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 December 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 09:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom of Great Britain → United Kingdom of Great Britain – This appears to have become accepted, with reference to numerous reliable sources, as the correct historical official name of the country. As such, it seems to make sense to move the page. Will Thorpe (talk) 06:15, 26 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 08:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Question: Please can you provide links to your reliable sources? YorkshireExpat (talk) 12:49, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi @YorkshireExpat, please consult the references provided in the first line of the article after the full title and in the thread directly above. Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 13:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose: A web search term of "Kingdom of Great Britain" -United -Ireland returns many websites using that term that would not be considered official but might be considered reputabl(ish) 3rd sources. Things like Universities, Antiques and Cartography specialists, hobbyist historian chat boards and that sort of thing. This leads me to believe that the current page title may be the WP:COMMONNAME. YorkshireExpat (talk) 20:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per the Act of Union 1707, the country's official name was "Great Britain." The term "United Kingdom" refers to the Union between Great Britain and Ireland, not England and Scotland. 2601:644:8B00:7BB0:5158:BAD5:8992:22DE (talk) 08:44, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you actually read the Acts of Union (1707) yourself as you clearly haven’t, multiple articles as listed above directly refer to the country by the name of “United Kingdom” or “United Kingdom of Great Britain” as opposed to the one. line the whole “it was only called Great a Britain” argument is based on in which it claims “United into one kingdom by the name of Great Britain”. Your whole argument is based on the word united not being capitalised in every usage throughout the acts and thus is clearly heavily flawed. 2A02:C7C:A05A:BA00:58AA:B71D:9ADC:DB50 (talk) 04:29, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Along with the good point of Walrasiad, the king was always "king of Great Britain" but with the Acts of Union with Ireland he was known as the "king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." Why would the king adopt such a title if the name of the country over which he rules is so similar? (United Kingdom of G.B. v. United Kingdom of G.B. and I.). See my post above for further information.
Respectfully, The Radioactive Box (talk) 02:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

* Oppose as historically illiterate. That it is a common mistake is no reason why we should collude with it: we have {{R from erroneous name}} to intercept such clangers and to deliver readers to the correct article with the correct information. Frankly I would be amazed if any self-respecting academic historian would use it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC) [reply]

  • The validity of the citations given for United Kingdom of GB must be verified. The text of the (English) Act of Union reads

    That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.

    — https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Act_of_Union_1707
    Let me read that to you again: "One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN". No ifs, no buts. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC) Drat, I just found That the Subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain shall from and after the Union have full Freedom and Intercourse of Trade and Navigation to and from any port or place within the said United Kingdom and the Dominions and Plantations thereunto belonging. I withdraw my comment. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject United Kingdom has been notified of this discussion. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 06:30, 30 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject England has been notified of this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 08:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Scotland has been notified of this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 08:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Former countries has been notified of this discussion. Polyamorph (talk) 08:41, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Northern Ireland has been notified of this discussion. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:10, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment while both the Acts of Union 1707 and 1800 do give references to a "United Kingdom",
    (according to wikisource; and stated above) the 1707 act on the actual name of the kingdom does state just

    United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN

    , compared to the 1800 act stating

    united into One Kingdom, by the name of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland

    , so slightly different wording, with possible "United Kingdom" used in the 1707 act being a descriptor than part of the actual name. While some academics use the name, is it the WP:COMMONNAME? Or would we need to consider cutting off the term for "Great Britain (state)" if there is no clear common name with a natural disambiguator. The UK Parliament itself just says "Great Britain", so probably trust them more than some news article or years-old history association. I guess then I'm slightly opposed. DankJae 15:37, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Setting aside the question of whether it was described as a "United Kingdom" at that time, we do not necessarily have to title articles by what is technically correct. "The title indicates what the article is about and distinguishes it from other articles.." For clarity, and to differentiate this article from other articles, we should keep the existing title. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:18, 2 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Whatever the original 1707 act says, other acts and treaties typically refer only to the "Kingdom of Great Britain". Indeed, as soon as the Succession Act of 1707 only a few months later (6 Anne c.6) the term "United Kingdom" makes only one appearance in lowercase ("this whole united kingdom"), and thereafter it is insistently only "Kingdom of Great Britain" (e.g. §8, §11, etc.). This seems to remain the case in all subsequent acts and treaties. So whatever the original official name, certainly the WP:COMMONNAME from 1707 to 1801 was "Kingdom of Great Britain". Walrasiad (talk) 20:16, 3 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Not its common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Historical Era - Union with Ireland[edit]

The legislation on the Treaty of Union 1800 entered into force 1 January 1801, as stated in the official legislation. Not 31 December 1800. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 00:38, 28 February 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs) [reply]

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