Talk:Mike Gravel

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Good articleMike Gravel has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 12, 2008Good article nomineeListed
In the newsA news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on June 27, 2021.

Later Senate term and 1980 election[edit]

I'll try and find time to write/rewrite anything which may need clarified re: blanket primaries. That was mostly part of an ongoing problem I've had with over-reliance on Our Campaigns/Political Graveyard/etc. on the part of too many editors, sometimes in favor of more first-hand information which contradicts the information they present.

Anyway, here's another reference, mostly directed at Wasted Time, but for anyone else so inclined. Cole, Dermot (2008). "The Final Division of Alaska". North To The Future. Kenmore: Epicenter Press. pp. 170–178. ISBN 978-0-9800825-3-1. mostly summarizes ANILCA, but particularly the differing stances between Gravel and Ted Stevens not only on that issue, but pretty much anything else happening at that time. The sources in the footnotes of the book quotes Lemann, Nicholas (September 30, 1979). "The Great Alaska Feud". Washington Post. Washington., which is described in the book as a "lengthy account." I didn't see it listed in the references, and the summary I read in the book would indicate that it contains lots of relevant material.RadioKAOS (talk) 09:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Recent appearance[edit]

Gravel appeared in a recently-produced television series called ANCSA at 40, which has been airing on KTOO's subchannel 360 North. Unlike the other episodes I've seen, which were panel discussions, Gravel appears by himself. I didn't have the time to actually sit down and watch it. That's okay, though, because it will no doubt re-air constantly.

Two things did catch my attention. First, Gravel stated that the 1966 Alaska elections were the original catalyst for ANCSA. This very subject is actually discussed in somewhat considerable detail in Etok: A Story of Eskimo Power by Hugh Gregory Gallagher. Most of it doesn't relate to Gravel, so the short version is that Natives weren't in lockstep behind Bill Egan in 1966 like they were for Democrats at other times. A group of Athabascans led by Ralph Perdue and Morris Thompson, mostly originally from the middle Yukon River and based in Fairbanks, were actively campaigning for Wally Hickel. The first AFN convention two weeks before the general election has been described as a "loyalty test" of the political establishment towards Natives. A peripheral issue around that same time involving Jeff Barry, Egan's chief of staff, apparently had the effect of Egan failing that test. Gravel stated that in this election, he received 80 percent or more of the vote in the villages against Ralph Rivers. The results show that this was the case in a large handful of villages in westernmost Alaska, or between Bethel and Kotzebue, but was hardly the case statewide.

The other thing I heard Gravel say on this program mirrors what has been stated elsewhere regarding his reasons for coming to Alaska. He stated that himself, Nick Begich, Gene Guess and Joe Josephson were all people of roughly the same age who came to Alaska specifically to pursue political ambitions. There's probably some truth to be had in that statement, though Gravel was a little bit older than the others (Begich and Guess were born in 1932, Josephson in 1933). Also, he truly did come to Alaska on his own, while biographies of the others suggest that they came to Alaska directly or indirectly on account of being employed by the federal government.RadioKAOS (talk) 15:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And another 360 North program[edit]

I think it's called Alaska Statehood Pioneers in Their Own Words. I no longer have cable nor watch much television in general, so I only stumbled upon this recently while visiting a friend. The episode I watched consisted of a 2004 interview of Katie Hurley by Terrence Cole. Hurley was Ernest Gruening's secretary for most of his tenure as territorial governor, referring to this for many years afterward as her "education at the University of Ernest Gruening". After the constitutional convention, she was removed from the political mainstream and raising her daughters in Wasilla, yet was still involved with Gruening. Curiously, she didn't mention Gruening's 1962 race against Ted Stevens, which Naske has written about in some detail as being Alaska's first truly acrimonious political contest. She did, however, discuss the 1968 election, specifically Bob Bartlett's endorsement of Gravel, believing that Bartlett was conned into endorsing Gravel while "doped up on his deathbed" or words to that effect. While Hurley's biases should be obvious, Bartlett and Gruening may not have been as much in lockstep as has been believed. Bartlett, while delegate, wrote privately about "the E.G. problem", namely that Gruening's ego wouldn't allow him to accept being a private citizen during the period between leaving the governor's office and his election as senator, and how Bartlett felt that Gruening was frequently interfering with his political agenda. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Later Senate term, plus photo[edit]

  • I haven't had the kind of time to play around with NewsBank as I would like lately. Unless I haven't looked hard enough, that Nicholas Lemann piece was available at the time I mentioned it on here, but now the Washington Post isn't available at all. If I'm incorrect, feel free to set me straight. From what little I was able to read of it, the legendary quote of Eric Idle as Philip Jenkinson comes to mind: "Pretty strong meat there from Sam Peckinpah". Very little of it is at all complimentary of Gravel, so I can understand that there's no mad stampede to use it as a source on here. Perhaps the most scandalous part is Ted Stevens speaking in early 1979, where he stops about an inch short of outright accusing Gravel of being responsible for the death of Ann Stevens.
  • Speaking of Ted Stevens, I have on my camera a derivative of the photo of Nixon signing the Pipeline Authorization Act, which included Gravel, Stevens, Young and numerous other members of Congress. This was sourced from the Ted Stevens Papers. The caption on the photo indicates that it was an official White House photo, so I'll upload it to Commons as soon as I have the time to upload all the other photos (my backlog is getting ridiculous at this point). Gotta run, cheers.RadioKAOS (talk) 00:40, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't gotten ahold of the Lemann WaPo piece yet either. I've got pending access to a couple of new archives, we'll see what they have. And yes, I've got a backlog of stuff I want to do too! Wasted Time R (talk) 13:41, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Extremely negative article[edit]

Why is this article apparently uniquely negative on Gravel? I've never seen this level of in-depth negativity, outright accusing him of lying repeatedly and creating a "controversy" where none appeared (the Barnes Review section). I'm going to be working on this page - the lack of editing done to it is pretty shocking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThaddeusStevens (talk • contribs) 07:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is not unduly negative about Gravel. Starting from essentially nowhere, he had many successes in his Alaskan political career and a definite impact on the state, and these are given full weight here. He did play a significant role in the Pentagon Papers saga, and the article gives that full weight as well. But the reality is that during his 2008 presidential campaign he invented or greatly exaggerated a couple of supposed past triumphs, and the article simply points that out. If you look at any quality sources written before 2006, none of them say that Gravel had a significant role in ending the draft. You only see such attributions starting with his presidential campaign, when writers who saw Gravel as an amusing sideshow with no chance of winning took some of his claims at face value. Accordingly I have restored the draft-related text and its sources, although per one of your comments I have replaced the Regnery book source with one from Politico that supports the same thing, which in turn is sourced from a 1978 book from Knopf by Lawrence M. Baskir, William A. Strauss, Chance and circumstance: The draft, the war, and the Vietnam generation.
I do agree with you, however, about the Barnes Review controversy getting undue weight in the article, and I have no problem with your edits that trim that material down and fold it into the containing section.
But the ending of the military draft is important – the switch to the all-volunteer army has had great consequences ever since for how American wars are fought and who fights them – and it is important for Wikipedia to get right who caused that switch to happen and who did not. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:18, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Original research[edit]

In two cases, a claim by Gravel's 2008 campaign is rebutted by articles from the 1970s. The ones I have looked at don't even mention Gravel.

  • Gravel had failed to stop the tests (notwithstanding his later claims during his 2008 presidential campaign).
  • Gravel's attempts to stop the draft had failed (notwithstanding Gravel's later claims that he had stopped or shortened the draft, taken at face value in some media reports, during his 2008 presidential campaign).

This is clearly synthesis and doe not belong in the article. Both contain extensive footnotes explaining why Gravel is wrong, but do not cite any sources that make that claim. Nothing about Gravel' 2008 or 2016 campaigns should be sourced to articles from the 1970s,

TFD (talk) 00:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gravel's 2008 and 2020 (not 2016) presidential campaigns are not being sourced to articles from the 1970s. Rather, Gravel's actions in the 1970s – what he accomplished and what he tried but failed to accomplish – are being sourced to WP:RS articles from the 1970s, rather than Gravel's own claims from 2006 and a couple of lazy media outlets in 2006 that parroted those claims (because they didn't take Gravel seriously and instead were focusing on his Crazy Uncle persona and Dadaist ads). The reason the 1970s RS articles that describe the ending of the Alaskan nuclear tests, and the ending of the U.S. military draft, don't mention Gravel is because Gravel had no role in the ending of either. The good news is that here in 2019, the media profiles of Gravel that I have seen have mentioned his role in the Pentagon Papers (which really did happen) but have not parroted his claims regarding the draft. I'd like to think this WP article has played a role in that. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:00, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The definition of Synethesis of published material is "combin[ing] material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." In this case you are using the Gravel campaign's statement in 2016 and articles from the 1970s to conclude that he was wrong in 2016. Obviously none of the articles from the 1970s make any comment about his 2016 campaign. It doesn't matter whether or not your synthesis is correct. It "acceptable only if a reliable source [or what you call the "lazy media"] has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article." TFD (talk) 04:04, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I've been around here a long time and I know what synthesis is, and I know that Wikipedia is about verifiability not truth. But still. Normally in a case like this, the press investigates a candidate's claims, finds them empty or badly exaggerated, and we can cite that and the WP article gets an important part of history right. But here because no one in the press takes the candidate seriously, the claims do not get investigated, and the WP article is forced to get an important part of history wrong. Does that make sense to you? Wasted Time R (talk) 10:16, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, because it is an argument why we should ignore no synthesis. And V doesn't mean truth. If you think that synthesis should be allowed in some cases, then you need to get the policy changed. If you think reliable sources have not been doing their job, then you need to get them to do it. I poated a question at NORN. TFD (talk) 02:38, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]


For reference for this thread, the post on NORN is here. Perathian (talk) 23:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Paradigm Research Group[edit]

The red link Paradigm Research Group could be fixed: Either go to an {{anchor}} in the relevant paragraph of the UFO#Claims by military, government, and aviation personnel section, or go to Citizen Hearing on Disclosure ending up at UFO conspiracy theory#Disclosure. –84.46.53.159 (talk) 06:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Too long[edit]

This article is much too long and contains many items that are unnecessary, duplicative, irrelevant, and/or violate WP: NOTEVERYTHING and WP:DUE standards. I encourage interested editors to review the article and reduce it down to a reasonable size, focusing especially on items that do not merit inclusion per WP:BLP requirements. After allowing some time for interested editors to make these reviews and edits, I will make an attempt at some further reductions to the article. Go4thProsper (talk) 23:08, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with the idea that the article is too long. This is a GA article and has been for a long time. And if it is too long, it is his two presidential campaigns that need trimming, neither of which ever attracted a measurable amount of support. Your changes to the lede have removed virtually everything about his career as an Alaskan representative and a U.S. Senator, which is where his actions had the most effect. That makes no sense at all, and I strongly disagree with those changes. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:39, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have now restored much, but not all, of the Alaska representative and U.S. Senator material to the lede, and a couple of other biographical items for narrative flow. Other removals that were made from the lede are okay. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:27, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image[edit]

Usually when a celebrity (Little Richard, Christopher Plummer for a time, Diego Maradona, among many others) or in this case politician dies (Robert Mugabe (not comparing Gravel to Mugabe of course), among many others), their image is usually changed to something from when they were most active and relevant. Since Gravel was Senator from 1969 to 1981. I would support changing the infobox image to something from that time period. After all he read the Pentagon Papers into record in 1971. Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 13:34, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and I have done so. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:21, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Video link[edit]

Added text and Guardian link to high-quality video of Gravel being casually filmed and interviewed during primary campaign in New Hampshire on January 3, 2008, by Mother Jones investigative reporter James Ridgeway, which also includes video of a telephonic interview with NPR's Neal Conan for Talk of the Nation. Gravel, Ridgeway and Conan all died in the first eight months of 2021. Activist (talk) 09:56, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1959 Tour[edit]

Picture about the tour here [1] AMCKen (talk) 06:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

C. R. Lewis[edit]

Mpen320 seems to believe that the redlink for Lewis should be "Clyde Lewis (Alaska politician)" instead, based solely on cherry-picking a poor-quality "source" that's been adopted as some sort of standard on Wikidata. WP:AT is policy on this site. For one, it strongly suggests that parenthetical disambiguation should be a last resort, not a first resort. It also says that extended parenthetical disambiguation should be discouraged when a simpler disambiguator would suffice. There is no article or other page titled "Clyde Lewis (politician)", for example. For another, the policy contains WP:COMMONNAME. Google hits are not a good indication of that due to numerous false positives related to the talk show host Clyde Lewis. Here's a sample of higher-quality sources instead. This is a piece published by the Washington Post in 1979, written by a notable writer (Nicholas Lemann), who refers to him as C. R. Lewis. This is a piece published by the Anchorage Daily News in 2021, written by a notable writer (Stephen Haycox), who refers to him as C. R. Lewis. The text of his obituary begins by referring to him as C. R. Lewis. That's just the low-hanging fruit of the top Google results, but the chronological spacing of those three examples deserves significant weight. Of greater relevance is the NewsBank archive of the Anchorage Times (accessed at adn.newsbank.com). It returned 5,000+ hits for C. R. Lewis versus 150+ hits for Clyde Lewis. Many of the latter hits appeared to be about a relative involved in legal trouble serious enough to warrant news coverage. Mpen320, if you would, please explain how this justifies defying policy. We're expected to give extra weight to something because it's been marked as policy. When it comes to article titles, however, many editors appear to believe that "I like it" or "I don't like it" somehow takes precedence over policy. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This did not require a five(?) paragraph scolding. You explanation in the reversion was fine. Feel free to create an actual article for the guy if that important.~~---- Mpen320 (talk) 16:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:REDLINKBIO has cautions about redlinks for people, and I usually avoid doing such links at all for that reason. And avoiding them has the benefit of postponing questions about what the biographical article title should be, until and unless an actual article is written. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm at it[edit]

This article has been a GA for many years. Evidently, the bar for GAs is a lot lower than I expected, the excellent job done with this article notwithstanding. I'm concerned that the article has been messed with enough in recent years to warrant a WP:GAR. I lack the time for such, however. Let me discuss two items. First is the images. It has long been the practice of GAs to illustrate the article as fully as possible, including using images which provide context for statements made in the article if images directly depicting the subject aren't available. At some point, every image not of or containing Gravel was removed from the article. It appears some but not all of them were restored. The recently-added infobox photo was uploaded by someone with a reputation for indiscriminately scavenging content off the web and uploading them to Commons with spurious claims of public domain. Looks to me like copyright is a consideration under WP:GACR. I found a small handful of photos of Mike and Rita Gravel from the late 1950s in two contemporary publications lacking copyright notices. I'm reluctant to donate them to Commons if either this article is being pushed further in the direction of a hagiography or if the lack of warm bodies on Commons means a lack of willingness to clean up their problem content. The second concern is the long-standing presence in the infobox of a predecessor and successor to his state House tenure. Whoever added that just made it up out of thin air. There were no designated seats in multi-member districts until the 13th Legislature. Therefore, it is impossible to determine a predecessor or successor. Why would I go to the trouble of writing and properly sourcing an explanatory note mentioning all that, only to have someone come along and add something which treats it like it was total bullshit? Furthermore, what sort of credibility exists in saying that state legislators are inherently notable but there's no redlinks for either John Hellenthal or Mike Beirne? We're treating both of them like, in the immortal words of Casey Kasem, "just a bunch of wasted names that don't mean diddly shit" because neither is Mike Gravel or someone closely related to him. In other, one more thing pushing this towards a hagiography instead of an entry in a comprehensive information resource. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the images that were removed but not restored, I believe there is just one, a portrait photo of C. R. Lewis in the "Reelection to Senate in 1974" section, with the caption "C. R. Lewis in 1973. After eight years of representing Anchorage in the Alaska Senate, Lewis won the Republican nomination and challenged Gravel in the 1974 election." I thought it looked a bit out of place, especially since there aren't portraits of any of Gravel's other political opponents in the article, so I didn't put it back in when I restored the others. But if you want to restore it, I won't object. Or of course an article on Lewis could be created and the photo would go there.
Regarding the new infobox photo here, I don't like it either. It's taken from an autographed glossy that Gravel handed out, which may or may not have been taken by a federal employee. I also don't think it's representative of how Gravel usually looked.
Regarding the old photos of Gravel and his first wife you found, I also have never been comfortable with claiming those kinds of images as public domain due to lack of apparent copyrights. As for Commons not having enough people to police all the stuff that gets uploaded there, yes that's true.
Regarding the pred/succ fields for state legislator in the infobox, those came in in this edit from an IP address in 2019. Just take them out with an edit summary explaining why, I doubt anyone will object.
Regarding the lack of redlinks for state legislators, my feeling as I said above is that they are best avoided anyway per considerations raised at WP:REDLINKBIO. Others will disagree; if you feel strongly that there are some names in this article that merit redlinks, put them in, I won't object.
Finally, you say this that this article is in danger of becoming a hagiography. I don't see it that way, but everyone's perspective is different, so if you could list some specific items in the article (beyond the ones you have mentioned here) that would help. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:20, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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