Talk:Knocking on wood

How similar is “similar”?[edit]

I was going to remove an entry from the “Similar traditions” section because it had nothing to do with wood. But then I noticed that this raises questions about other entries:

Not very similar

Israel – The words do not mention wood, and no action is described
Vietnam – Same (according to Google Translate, at least)

Somewhat similar

Denmark – The spoken part is completely different, but knocking on a table is similar
Indonesia, Malaysia, and Thailand – Same. The Indonesian words are different (again, using Google Translate). Google Translate didn’t recognize the Malay, and no Thai words are given. But the actions involve knocking on wood.
Italy – Wood is not involved, but the “touch [material]” formulation is the same as a common variant of this saying
Norway – Wood is not mentioned directly, but it sounds like it’s implied to some degree

In my opinion, the first two should be removed. Otherwise, this could become a very long list of good luck rituals in general, and lose the focus on this ritual in particular. But I’d say the others all have some kind of connection to the specific “knock on wood” custom, enough to justify keeping them. –96.234.17.196 (talk) 07:09, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia or Wiktionary?[edit]

Perhaps this is more of a Wiktionairy entry? I dunno so I won't touch it... –— Preceding unsigned comment added by Headcase88 (talk • contribs) 06:37, 17 April 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In Africa[edit]

As I can see the saying goes a long way back in the days. I dont see any African saying that equates to that, but I know African tradition requieres that respect to plants, using woods to fabricate objects of worshipping to their gods. It is probably the only way we knew to pay respect to our mother earth and our main source of nutrition. Even the animals we feed on, feed on the plants and the whole cycle comes down to the only one that depends only on the soil mother earth for our main food provider. By touching wood we are going back to respecting our environment and in so doing avoiding bad things that happens.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrsunnysunshyne (talk • contribs) 09:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Article missing something, perhaps?[edit]

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but this article begins by discussing WHAT the saying is used for, and how the phrase is uttered across the world, but lacks any information on the possible origins of the phrase, or the meaning behind it. That's strange to find missing from a Wikipedia article on such a popular subject. 12:34, 19 January 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.186.63 (talk)

Variation[edit]

My Dad used to say the wood had to be uncoated - no paint or varnish - and so would touch, for example, the underside of a table rather than the top surface. Has anyone else come across this? 103.4.125.25 (talk) 22:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative Sources[edit]

I'd always heard that it's an appeal to Zeus (to whom the oak was sacred), to avoid punishment by Nemesis for hubris. ― Brianary (talk) 19:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I once heard on BBC Radio 4 that the phrase originated from a ring owned by Henry VIII, that was reputed to be set with a piece of wood from the cross of Christ's crucifixion. His followers would touch it for luck. In the light of this entry, this seems to be an apocryphal suggestion, but I thought I would contribute this in any case. –— Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.252.64.1 (talk) 10:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Steve Roud may be right that the first documented use of touching wood was in a children's game; but it is rare that children invent social customs; rather they reflect them. Children's games play with the sound of words and behaviors of adults to learn words and reinforce behaviors and beliefs in children. "Mother-may-I" was not the source of the social norm of parental consent for actions of their children. Nor was "Red-rover" the source for setting up battle lines or testing each combatant's strength individually. "Ring-around-the-rosies" didn't create the notion that fragrant flowers could ward of the plague. "Tiggy-touch-wood" sounds like a reflection of the superstitions of the society in which the children played. –— Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.169.21.183 (talk) 18:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thing is, he's basing his comments on the historical record. What are yours based on? Also, "ring around the rosies" does not, according to scholars, date from the plague years. --Dannyno 22:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

he's basing his theory on british folklore, his area of expertise, but the fact that this same expression occurs in many different languages seems to suggest an older origin than the 19th century. of course this is o.r. and no basis for altering the article, but it warrants further investigation, and more sources than just roud.--Mongreilf (talk) 15:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I've reworked the article to include the sources mentioned (and not) in the footnotes and references so there's only one citation needed now. I had the same impression of the Steve Roud para that seemed to dismiss these older claims and pan-national references by attributing the pov to him. Hope that's okay. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I think the expression probably originated from a practical concern or rule of thumb that it is wise to test for the sturdiness of a structure before entering. This avoids the bad luck of having a structure with frail, hollow beams, falling on your head. However, I find no evidence of this speculation on the web (until now).

From Ask Yahoo, I found the following explanation that some might find interesting:

"Dear Yahoo!: What is the origin of the custom of knocking on wood for luck? Dale Minneapolis, Minnesota

Dear Dale: If you are a true fan of Ask Yahoo! (knock on wood), you'll be all too familiar with our answer -- we are not sure. A few possibilities are repeated fairly consistently in the search results for our query "knock on wood origin."

The explanation we prefer is the ancient belief that spirits either dwelled in or guarded trees. We prefer this because many cultures around the world show evidence of tree worship dating back thousands of years.

Greeks worshipped the oak as it was sacred to Zeus, Celts believed in tree spirits, and both believed touching sacred trees would bring good fortune. Irish lore holds that "touching wood" is a way to thank the leprechauns for a bit of luck. Pagans also held similar beliefs of protective tree spirits. Chinese and Koreans thought the spirits of mothers who died in childbirth remained in nearby trees.

Another explanation points to the wooden Christian cross as the origin of "good luck," although this is likely a Christian adaptation of earlier pagan practices.

A Jewish version traces the origin to the Spanish Inquisition of the 15th century. At the time, persecuted Jews fled to synagogues built of wood, and they devised a coded knock to gain admission. Since this practice spared countless lives, it became common to "knock on wood" for good luck. –— Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawaiian Brian (talk • contribs) 00:46, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When I was a child I read many books on fairies (sorry, can't remember any specific titles other than "Faeries" by Brian Froud & Alan Lee) and one belief was that knocking on wood would make a noise to cover up what you were saying, so that evil or mischievous sprites couldn't overhear and sabotage your plans/wishes. So the habit people have of knocking on wood AFTER they say something is useless, and I suppose any continuous noise such as ringing bells or clapping (in the days before radios & tvs!) while you're talking would serve the same purpose. Another belief was that fairies could not tolerate iron (for example, a horseshoe over your door would keep them from entering your house); perhaps this is why "touch iron" is a similar saying/superstition. Leelannee23 (talk) 16:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The pattern hiding in plain view, from these unsupported but widely international anecdotes, suggests a pagan origin - the world was much more forested before wooden ships and people like St Boniface (see Donar Oak). The pattern is so stark, I cannot believe no-one has researched it more thoroughly (within their own country if not the planet). Where else might we look? Furthering thought (talk) 13:06, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Parallel expressions[edit]

Hmmm, is there an article that discusses expressions like this in general? E.g. Latin absit omen, Yiddish keyn aynore, Italian tocca ferro and so on. I was thinking of added a section to this article on that: to my mind it seems appropriate, but it also seems like the kind of thing that other wikipedians might not agree with me on. So what do you think: does that info belong in this article, and if not, where does it belong? --Iustinus 19:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone come across "Touch gold" being used to mean the same? I have not heard of "Touch gold" in USA where I live currently. However in Sri Lanka I have heard of the pharase Touch gold Ritigala Jayasena (talk) 01:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhere i saw a reference to people touching metal when it became an important material. Feel free to put your information in the article maybe under "Other" - especially if you can find a reference for it or I'll take a look for that ref again. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here;s one used by the writer though, "Touch Gold and Touch Wood! He is enjoying this great fortune." in Sri Lanka's Sunday Observer here[1] if that suits let's put it in the article then.Julia Rossi (talk) 07:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi

In Australia, we say "Touch wood" and simultaneously do so, where possible. –— Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.22.69 (talk) 09:58, 5 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

In America we say "Knock on Wood" then knock on our heads. Go Figure!! –— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.226.10 (talk) 15:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What the fuck are you talking about? Go figure what? Greg343 (talk) 06:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Greg, I am pretty sure the guy who claims to be from America has never been to America.. I have never seen anyone knocking on their head when they say knock on wood! It sounds ridiculously funny though :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.82.241.35 (talk) 21:55, 10 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My mother does it, actually, and so have a few of my co-workers but only when there is no wood around to knock on. I live on the East Coast but I don't know whether it's a regional thing or not. I've never thought about it. MultK (talk) 04:42, 28 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In Britain it is done as a joke if no "other" wood is around. [2] (wooden-headed is a slang name for a thick or stupid person so it is a self-deprecating joke because you've just said touch wood to avoid tempting fate, before checking that there is wood to touch!). -- PBS (talk) 11:56, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly right. In the U.S. as well, when there's no wood to knock on, you knock on your head. It's a joke. Get it? One is implying that one's head is made of wood. That's all he's talking about Greg. Go ruminate on that one. And quit using the word "fuck" for something so trivial. –— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.190.21.67 (talk) 08:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

These could be tidied up by someone who can make the link format work so that instead of repeats, you get^abc etc and the like. I've been attempting but it just stands in the text looking u-ugleh – also unsure of how best to cite Roud's book. Be my guest, anyone. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)ohh..[reply]

In Eastern cultures![edit]

I am from Iran. and the term Hit on wood and knock on wood is used frequently. It must also be used in neighboring cultures. I myself couldn't find reliable sources in English. Can someone find some? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pouyakhani (talk • contribs) 11:37, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am Bulgarian and i must say that in all Balkan cultures here is well known and very often use of " knock on wood" basically for protection against the evil news( not for luck or anything else). The people use it mainly against illness or if heard that something bad has happened to some one, or if a bad word or news is heard. In this ritual you must say "God keep us" and knock on the nearest wood then pull your ear ( on the bottom) with the same hand you knocked. If there is not a wood near by we knock on our heads. Ironical we used to say that the stupid man has always a "wooden head". So this is where we knock on our heads. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nix1129 (talk • contribs) 08:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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“Touch” .vs. “knock” wood, in America[edit]

As a lifelong American-speaker (see? Doesn’t that just sound so American?) I must take exception to the claim that (all or most) English-speakers say “touch wood”. I’ve only heard “touch” used by British folks. Ok, maybe others, too - but not native American speakers. (And, no, not Native American speakers either. ;-) )

I think that first sentence should be changed. Rob Cranfill (talk) 01:41, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]