Talk:Christina, Queen of Sweden

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Confusing new image[edit]

An image has been added to this article showing Christina with Cardinal Azzolino but without mentioning him in the caption. I added that but it was reverted - can't imagine why. I will add it again unless someone can explain why not. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:12, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

New POV added[edit]

New rewording about Christina's early relationship and her mother's feeling for her father has been added. As far as I can see, there is nothing to substantiate any of it, and in one case it goes against a cited reliable source. Needs to be cleaned up. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:18, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Gustavus Adolphus shared Maria Eleonora's interest in architecture and her love of music, while she was sentimentally devoted to her husband. She may have suffered from a post-natal depression. In the year after Christina's birth, Maria Eleonora was described as being in a state of hysteria owing to her husband's absences. When the king was at home, she thought she was "in heaven"; when he was away, she became depressed, often ill.[1] When Gustav Adolf did not come home as expected after the summer campaign of 1630, Maria wrote to Johan Kasimir that she could not stand it, she wanted to die. She begged him to try to persuade the king to come home. It was decided that Maria would travel to Germany the following spring.[2] On 4 December 1630 Gustavus Adolphus described his wife as being "a very sick woman". Maria Eleonora showed little affection for her daughter and was not allowed any influence in Christina's upbringing. The princess was placed in the care of Gustavus Adolphus' half-sister Catherine and the Chancellor Axel Oxenstierna. To Axel Oxenstierna, he confessed: "If anything happens to me, my family will merit your pity [..], the mother lacking in common sense, the daughter a minor - hopeless, if they rule, and dangerous, if others come to rule over them." In early November 1632 he went to Erfurt to say goodbye to Maria Eleonora, who had been in Germany since the previous winter. In 1633 Maria Eleonora returned to Sweden with the embalmed body of her husband. Things were made worse by Maria Eleonora's continual weeping. During the rest of her life she preserved the memory of her husband, weeping for hours and even days on end. All from the article on her mother which has not any references.Taksen (talk) 14:22, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Queen Mary Eleonora was the most beautiful queen in Europe, but she was hysterical, unstable and overly emotional. Maria Eleonora was described as deeply in love with the king Gustav Adolf. Maria Eleonora, queen of sweden, arrived on 10 July 1631, to Wolgast in Pomerania. M's stay in Pomerania was a long one. Only at the beginning of Nov 1631 was she able to leave Wolgast to follow the king via the courts of Berlin, Dresden and Weimar, among others. On 11 January 1632 she met with her spouse, close to Hanau. The couple were spotted for the last time on 28 October 1632 at Erfurt. The very next day, Gustav Adolf broke up. On 3 Nov Maria wrote to Axel Oxenstierna: "without H.R.M.'s presence, I am worth nothing, not even my life". Seven days later she received in Erfurt the message of his death, shot at Lützen. Her concern had proved justified.[3]

The most difficult issue was the question of her refusal to allow the burying of the body, or at the very least postpone the funeral for as long as possible. The reason for this was that she wanted to commit suicide and be buried together with her husband. From the Swedish Wikipedia.

  • from Kromnov: In Nyköping she declared that the burial should not take place during her lifetime - she often spoke of shortening her life - or at least should be postponed as long as possible. She wanted a church to be built where the coffin would stand. On 21 August, the bishop announced that Maria had promised to have the king buried, as long as it took place when she wanted to and not in Stockholm, where she herself no longer wanted to live. They tried to persuade M not to visit the corpse so often. In October M wanted to place the coffin in Uppsala and had already ordered marble and builders. The Council pointed out that Gustav Adolf himself had chosen Riddarholm Church as his final resting place. M then accepted burial in Stockholm but wanted the coffin to be taken to Strömsholm, where she wished to build a chapel. M finally had to give in
  • From the German Wikipedia: However, this image of the hysterical, depressive and profligate queen dowager, which has become part of historiography, has been put into perspective in more recent research, first in the 1980s by the archivist Åke Kromnov,[4] among others, and most recently in the monograph "Drottningen som sa nej" by Moa Matthis, published in 2010. According to this, this image is largely due to the propaganda activities of the Imperial Council representing the Swedish high nobility, which wanted to prevent the usually decisive participation of the Queen Dowager in the guardianship government.Taksen (talk) 14:55, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Insane?[edit]

As far as I know there is no source for any claim that Maria Eleonora was considered "insane" by anyone back then, yet that keeps being added to the article as what appears to be the personal opinion of one Wikipedian, not discussing it here but handing out an order in an edit summary. I am reverting this again and writing to the editor again. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 03:38, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After all these years I am not so interested in a discussion with you. It is clear the article on her mother - which is not very encyclopaedic - needs attention too. No critique on Christina, and now her mother. If someone comes up with bad references on her art collection you don't do anything. It seems you are protecting her holiness. Meanwhile, I like to think Christina was as unstable as her mother. Have a nice X-mas, byebye Taksen (talk) 08:08, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We are required to be interested in basic Wikipedia policies and guidelines. What we "like to think" is irrelevant. Please stop adding your personal opinion and slant to article text. We are all supposed to follow the basic rules here. Writing to your talk page seems useless. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:51, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://sok.riksarkivet.se/Sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=9106
  2. ^ https://sok.riksarkivet.se/Sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=9106
  3. ^ https://sok.riksarkivet.se/Sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=9106
  4. ^ https://sok.riksarkivet.se/Sbl/Presentation.aspx?id=9106

Requested move 15 May 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 08:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Christina, Queen of Sweden → Christina of Sweden – This is the only article of a Swedish queen where the title is styled this way. Compare to the other queen regnant Ulrika Eleonora of Sweden. Interstellarity (talk) 22:31, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Policy-based neutral per WP:NCRAN: "When there is no ordinal, the formats John of Bohemia and Joanna of Castile or Stephen, King of England and Anne, Queen of Great Britain are used.". Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:54, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There is no comparison between Christina and other Queens of Sweden. She was not only "the queen," she was the reigning monarch; and she abdicated the throne, she converted to Catholocism, and she went to Rome. Because of her special place in the history of the 17th century, that is how she is referred to in the historical literature of the period: Christina, Queen of Sweden. I don't know any serious author on the history of the period that refers to her otherwise. warshy (¥¥) 23:14, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    She was not only "the queen," she was the reigning monarch - You're right. Christina was was Queen regnant of Sweden and did abdicate. So was Ulrika Eleonora. estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:10, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Policy is neutral on this one as state by Tim O'Doherty. There's no other notable Christina of Sweden, and the other Queen regnant of Sweden uses the {Name} of {Place} format. In any case, ngrams appear to weakly support the proposed title [1]. estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:09, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There have been several other very notable women called Christina of Sweden, most by marriage + the current king's youngest sister. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In any case there's none so notable that the queen is not the primary topic. I don't know where all the opposition based on NCROY comes from since the guidelines are completely neutral. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per WP:NCROY. Also, "Christina of Sweden" sounds more like the female equivalent of "Tom of Finland" than a monarch. Walrasiad (talk) 00:52, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose So many other royal women have been "Christina of Sweden". Thus should be left alone. There is already a redirect. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, per WP:NCROY and other opposers. Johnbod (talk) 15:09, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, "Christina of Sweden" is less informative.Taksen (talk) 06:27, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This is a good example showing the tendency to remove “King” and “Queen” from titles was a mistake, mostly a mistake of WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:00, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral Other Swedish queens named Christina were not queens regnant, so in most cases their maiden names are used. For monarchs, typically we use their regnal name if it has ordinal numbers (ex. Margaret I of Denmark). If there are no ordinal numbers then it's either "Queen/King [Name]" (ex. Queen Victoria), "[Name] of [realm]" (ex. John of Bohemia, Elizabeth of Russia), or "[Name], Queen/King of [realm]" (ex. this page, Anne, Queen of Great Britain, Edgar, King of England, etc.). So based on the guidelines there's precedent for both the current and suggested names for this page, but I don't quite see why we need to change it when the current one is working. Keivan.fTalk 19:05, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On the "a christian without faith" quotation and reference[edit]

The quote is wrongly contextualized, it appears to mention on the initial arrival at the city: "the Pope refused to receive her, and pasquinades were pasted up all over the city, describing her cruelly as a queen without a realm, a Christian without faith, and a woman without shame". My own wondering on it was to understand the degree of the profanity: no faith and still considered a Christian, or beyond, having had the direct experience and in no need of holding a faith (as the core of the credo, we hope to assume; and, as well, should be added the Pope and others could had reached such degree of certainty) as it was already a given fact for her. Why she picked Rome, retirement there. How was her decision process and perception of the numen, as evolving through the conversations with the different people whose presence she shared at the Vatican and around.

Not to create polemics here, neither promote one version over the other: if she was there only to "wait until the French take Naples" why she stayed for that much longer un her own demise. Was our Queen held ransom? A political prisoner of the Vatican, under false pretexts. Is her own library there accessible? Those are open questions to stir up debate, not an expert on it neither. Hard enough to research on much more recent events: any cues on how to move on and clarify further are welcome. Picture us as Wikipedians entering that place full on single-mindedly asking about this. Go through her correspondence, clarify and settle the issue a bit further.

How to achieve so? As, how to enter as well. New line of research offline and in this text, as simple as it gets.

On my own end vouching to rework the article, add more on her stay and relationships while there. No doubt on not leaving those lines intact, those are misleading including the link provided: it takes too much time to find the source given the mistakes. It would be lovely to point straight to "Christina, Queen of Sweden: The Restless Life of a European Eccentric" by Veronica Buckley, the whole sentence as it appears quoted now in the entry comes from there instead. In fact, the reference in that book is wrong and points at the source of the quote book as "Buckley, Veronica, Queen Christina of Sweden, the Restless Prize of a European Eccentric, Fourth Estate, p. 30". Not saying the passage on the Queen at "The history of Loot and Stolen Art" has no value, if needed I myself would pick more information from there and double down on aspects such as the silver mask (is that a darker silver than usual?) and the love affairs of hers, including all artists and knowledge itself.

The rest of us must presume, whoever you are (unsigned), that you will make no changes at all (none) without reliable sources attached to them. Christina left Sweden because she had severely abused her position and knew it. She tried to come back, but was turned away, She ruined her reputation in France with her Fontainebleau murder, and had made a few friends in Rome, which was close to Naples, which she hoped to take over. Then she got old. There are a few well-sourced facts for you. Best wishes, --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:55, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extremely biased?[edit]

This article makes little sense in language and feels like a article defending her actions et Al (after the king criticized her) "but she defended musicians and artists" and Christina's financial extravagance and Her unconventional lifestyle and occasional masculine style of dressing have been featured in countless novels, plays, operas, and film. In most biographies of Christina, her gender and cultural identity play an important role. And Gustavus shared Maria's interest in architecture and her love of music and "grief suggests mental instability." Is a suggestion also what is the "most learned" even mean •Cyberwolf•talk? 23:15, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "feels like a article"? "defended" = protected. Are you on the right place? Taksen (talk) 06:38, 30 March 2024 (UTC) Thanks. Meanwhile I made a few changes but have no idea what this means: et Al (after the king criticized her).Taksen (talk) 08:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think et al [sic] is what was meant, where it should have been etc. User calls her parents Gustavus and Maria which were not their names. Nonetheless, Christina was one of Sweden's worst monarchs (sad for Garbo), and we should be careful with pro-Christina bias. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:34, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gustavus Adolphus works Taksen (talk) 12:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that or Gustav Adolf or Gustav Adolph, not just "Gustavus" alone. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:27, 31 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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