Talk:Frappé coffee

Untitled

I object to the article "Frappé (Greek)" being renamed "Greek frappé coffee". When you order a frappé, you simply ask for just that - a frappé. You do not ask for a "Greek frappé coffee". It's not like Irish Coffee, for instance. Irish Coffee is a term used internationally for a particular drink, whearas "Greek frappé coffee" is used no where by anybody for anything.

Similarly, we do not refer to Austrian cappuchino or French latté.

I'm for changing the article back to "Frappé (Greek)".

--Damac 15:18, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, but then we should ask an admin to delete "Frappé (Greek)" so we can move the article there. I do not allow my contribution to be copy-pasted without attribution. —Geraki 2005-07-14 T 15:52 Z

• I see your point about attribution, I wasn't aware that original authors lost out with redirections. I had set up the "Frappé (Greek)" entry before I noticed your page on the Categories: Greek Cuisine page. How do I go about asking admin?

I guess the Wikipedia:Requested moves guide applies here.—Geraki 2005-07-14 T 23:12 Z

Also, I think adding "coffee" to the title is not bad. "Frappé" is a milk drink in every country except Greece. If you ask for a "Frappé" in London you will get a milkshake and not coffee. —Geraki 2005-07-14 T 15:56 Z

• I would stick to Frappé (Greek). If needs be, there can be a disambigation page set up to distinguish it from Frappé (milkshake) or whatever. The original designation "Greek frappe coffee" was pointless as it did not come up in simple searches of the word frappe. I think my suggestion confirms to standard wiki naming proceedures. --Damac 17:06, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah you cannot find "frappé" when searching for "frappe", but that is not the case here (the article shows normally on searches). While I would not cry if my suggestion is not followed, I believe that according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision) adding "coffee" to the title would make the subject more clear. Of course when one finds it in the coffe category it's not needed. Whatever. —Geraki 2005-07-14 T 23:12 Z

Confused

Don't know whom I'm suppose to discuss this with but I just added an article Yiannis Dritsas, should it be merged into Greek frappé coffee article? ~Mallaccaos

Yiannis ritsas should expand to a proper bio article instead of being deleted/merged Pictureuploader

And it might be correct to comment that 'frappé' is a french word. (meaning to beat or knock -as in the ice cubes do in a shaker) On menues the beverage is more often presented as 'Café frappé'. 'Greek' coffee is something entirely different.

It might be appropriate to mention Starbucks' Frappuccino in this article. It's clearly a derivative (perhaps an 2nd or 3rd derivative ;-) --Clconway 08:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

What evidence do you have that it's a derivative? It's a cold coffee drink involving sweetened coffee syrup with milk and emulsifiers (not instant coffee), ice, and a blender. Nescafé frappé is made with instant coffee, sugar, water, and ice, and doesn't need a blender. They're both cold coffee drinks, but then iced coffee predates both of them.... --Macrakis 23:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, how is the Frappuccino "European?" From Frappuccino: "A frozen coffee drink similar to Starbucks's Frappuccino was invented by The Coffee Connection ... who coined and trademarked Frappuccino." 96.37.29.231 (talk) 00:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not a derivative at all. The original drink was a frozen drink made with ice in a blender creating something similar to a milkshake. In Boston, a Frappe is a milkshake. It was invented by a Boston area coffee chain called "The Coffee Connection" owned by George Howell. This chain was purchased by Starbucks in large part for the rights to the Frappuccino beverage (as well as a quick easy entrance into the lucrative Boston coffee market). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.6.88.228 (talk) 02:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

merger

I oppose the proposed merger. One page is about a drink, the other is about a guy who made the drink. What is this fondness for merging pages? -The Gomm 21:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps because the inventor is not notable enough other than the invention of Frappe, so he doesnt deserve an article on his own. It should be expanded to be a proper bio article. Pictureuploader 07:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Dritsas was not the mythologized inventor of frappé. It was his employee, sales rep Dimitrios Vakondias [see "Frappé Nation" (Editions Potamos), page 134].Dansyoung 11:02, 26 October 2006

Well, let's see what's left of the Dritsas article if we take out things about Nescafé Frappé:

Yiannis Dritsas was the distributor for Nestle in Greece.

That's all. That is little enough to be an appositive phrase. Since no one has found anything else notable about this fellow since the merger was proposed, I am merging it in. If it turns out he later became president of Nescafé International and had three children with Britney Spears (now, that's notability!), the article can be split out again. --Macrakis 23:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur. Just write the invention story too, and redirect his name here if you like. NikoSilver 23:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

"Greece consumes four times more coffee than the rest of the world"

Even if true, this is a rather misleading statistic, as it compares Greek coffee consumption to world consumption and not consumption in coffee-drinking countries. Although Greeks do love coffee, per capita consumption of coffee in Greece is less than half of what it is in Finland. Moreover, per capita coffee consumption in Greece regularly ranks below such countries as Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, and Germany. If it seems that Greeks are drinking more coffee, it might have to do with the durability of frappé foam and the custom of drinking frappé slowly over the course of an hour or two or three.Dansyoung 16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I added that remark copied from a magazine. What are your sources? Pictureuploader 17:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The ICO (International Coffee Organization) compiles country-by-country statistics on per capita coffee consumption. You can find them on many sites, including http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/energy-resources/variable-294.htmlDansyoung 10:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Frappé in Ireland

"Most coffee shops do not produce frappe as the simplicity of their make up eludes most Barristas."

I am not sure about that sentence...

Actually, the majority of the Ireland section is a different style. Could someone with some decent knowledge of the area edit it a bit? I know nothing about frappé, never mind in Ireland, so I'm not really qualified... --FaerieInGrey 20:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

and also can u source the price? is it always 4 euros?--Slogankid 18:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

wtf wrong picture.

That's no frappe, mates. that's cappucinno freddo. please change the pic to the original. or i can up my own. in a pint glass. 16:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Not really frappé variations, simply other iced coffees

An iced-coffee called espresso freddo (or cappuccino freddo) has also emerged. The difference from frappé in preparation is that it consists of an espresso lungo shaken in a glass full of crushed ice cubes. Capuccino freddo is served with a topping of milk in a form of a dense froth. Cocoa or cinnamon powder is optionally dusted on the foam, to resemble real cappuccino. Its preparation is sometimes confused with the iced café latte (espresso in iced cold milk but without shaking) that is consumed in the rest of Europe.

moved by Wildaker

A minor point on "Balkan immigrants"

It was not Balkan immigrants who brought the drink to Bulgaria, Denmark and Serbia. There are too few of them in Greece (except Albanians) and, since they are immigrants, i.e. they live in Greece, they cannot carry anything with them to their home countries. God knows how Denmark ended up here. I've changed it to "tourists", which is a more adequate explanation for frappe expansion.

"accidentally"

I published the change without putting a title - I removed the cit needed and added a ref after the word accidentally.--Greece666 (talk) 17:23, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Grammar and formatting of the noun "frappé"

Hey friends hope all are well out there, here in the depths of quarantine I decided to spend some time giving little articles like this some TLC. In looking over this article I've noticed some peculiarities in the way the word frappé is used. I thought I'd bring them up here to see if there was any disagreement about the specifics.

• Frappe or frappé? | Most of the uses in the article include the tone (é) while a few lack it. I don't feel very strongly that one is way more correct than the other, but there definitely needs to be only one form used in the article. In my opinion there shouldn't technically be a tone over the 'e' because:

1. English as a language is not very good at handling tones tones and they can lead to confusion.
2. This is not a proper noun being borrowed into English from Greek or French, the word "frappe" is already an English word without the tone. In fact the wiktionary entry for it lists one definition as this very drink.
3. And perhaps most importantly, a few google searches show that when the word is used toe describe the Greek drink specifically, it is very regularly spelled without the tone.

While I don't feel strongly about this, my recommendation would be that the tone be removed from the title of the article as a whole and that it be written in the article with no tone; maybe we make reference to the tone as an alternate name.

• Frappe vs. a frappe | For the most part this article seems to treat word frappe as a non-count noun (like the word "money"). This is maybe because the original writer was influenced by the way the term works in Greek, though I'm not sure about this. Whatever the reason, the result feels very unnatural to me. Sentences like, "Sometimes, frappé is served without any water..." or "A glass of frappé coffee" sound wrong to my ear. I would argue the word frappe should be treated just like the word latte (eg: "A frappé is served"). If this change is, and I think it should be, it would require us to decide on a plural. Again I think this should follow the example of "latte." We should talk about "1 frappe" or "2 frappes".
• A glass of frappe | This sounds very wrong to my ear. As with my other points, I think looking to the word "latte" is the solution to this problem. We don't ask for a "glass of latte" and similarly I don't think we can talk about a "glass of frappe".
• Frappé coffee, caffe frappé, Greek frappé, or just frappé | While it makes sense to point out all these titles at the head of the article, we should differ to the most common English name used by people who know about the drink. In my experience that only term used regularly to refer to this type of coffee is simply "frappe" with all the longer names appearing only on menus (just like how a menu might read "caffe latte" but you actually ask for a "latte") or when there is a need prevent confession with other types of frappes (like a "Greek frappe not a "Boston frappe"). So I'm proposing we point out that it is usually "simply called a frappe" at the head of the article and the refer to the dink only by that term unless there is a specific reason to use the long name.

Since this seems to be a pretty sleepy page, and since none of these changes seem like they should be particularly controversial, I'm going to go ahead and start working on these changes unless there is disagreement to be had. Cheers --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 18:45, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Frappé with an acute accent (not a "tone") is the normal and correct way to spell frappé coffee. In New England, a milk shake with ice cream is called a frappe, and is pronounced in one syllable, as FRAP. The acute accent is necessary to show that it's pronounced fra-PAY. The case of latte is different. That is borrowed from Italian, and is not written with an accent in Italian.

The OED documents the use of frappé (with an accent) for iced drinks throughout the 20th century (though it doesn't mention Greek-style frappé coffee in particular).

As you say, most uses in the existing article include the accent. I have corrected the two cases without. --Macrakis (talk) 19:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry @Macrakis:! I think I ended up undoing some of your edits when I just pushed out a major edit that included the creation of an info box and a heavy edit on the science-y section about foam, it was not my intention to remove your changes which I mostly agreed with! --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 20:59, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

As for the issue of frappé vs frappe. You seem to be right that most official sources list only frappé as the official spelling in English, or list it only as a French word, though none of them mention the Greek drink in their definitions which means we're not necessarily beholden to that spelling. In my googling at least, most websites, blogs, menus, etc. that talk explicitly about the about the Greek frappe(é) seem to use no accent unless they are quite old (like the cited LA times article form 2004). Like I said above, I'm not staunchly opposed to the use of the accent, it just seems a little proscriptive to me since people talking about frappes don't seem to use it. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 21:08, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

There is no "official" standard for English spelling. But random web sites and blogs are not good sources -- they're often sloppy about both content and style. The normal pronunciation of "frappe" in English is FRAP, which is not what is intended here, so I think the accent is needed. (By the way, I think you mean prescriptive and not proscriptive.) --Macrakis (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

About my changes which you overwrote, I trust you will merge them back in? Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 21:30, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't mean to say there is an "official" way to spell the word, only that "official" sources (ie conservative sources) like the OED and Merriam-Webster list only frappé with an accent. Though as you pointed out these sources are not actually referring to the same thing as we are. None of them seem to have entries from "frappe the Greek iced-coffee." I also didn't mean to imply that only "random web sites and blogs" omit the accent. I mean that (from what I can tell) the vast majority of recent publications that are specifically about the Greek frappe spell the word without an accent (be they blogs, company websites, corporate publications, or academic papers). Based on that fact, I think its a reasonable statement that "frappe" is the common spelling and therefore should be used by the wiki article. For example here are three formal or academic sources that use the accentless "frappe" all of which were at the top of the page when "frappé coffee" or "frappe coffee" is searched on google scholar: 1, 2, 3. In fact, taking a second look at the Google Scholar result for "frappé coffee" it seems that every single article that is referring to the Greek coffee drink spells it with no accent

The fact that English speakers may intuitively mispronounce a word (such as "frappe") has no bearing on how it is spelled on Wikipedia, nor should it. Firstly, there are other methods explicitly designed to make pronunciation clear on Wikipedia (namely the IPA template) and secondly, Wikipedia is a descriptive source, not a prescriptive one (which is indeed what I meant above :) ). My understanding is that the only thing that should matter here is how most people spell the word frappe(é) when referring to the greek drink. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 23:40, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree that WP is in the business of recording usage, not defining it.

If you believe it is the case that the vast majority of reliable sources spell it without the accent, please document it. I don't think Google Scholar is really a great source for general usage, but let's look at the first page of results for frappe coffee (Google search generally ignores accents):

1. Mirkopoulou et al. -- letter to the editor, not a reliable source (your Hippokratia result)
2. Patent US4903585A -- not mentioned in body of text, refers to another patent where it's spelled with the accent
3. Radu-Golea -- with accent
4. Hsueh -- a computer science paper with incidental use of frappe without accent; authors are from Taiwan, so not clear that this represents native speakers' usage
5. Jones -- FRAPPE written in all-caps, so accent often not shown at all (they also spell Nescafé without an accent, even in lower case)
6. Patent US7231142B1 -- spells it without accent, but is describing a slushie-type drink made from brewed coffee, not a Greek-style frappé made with instant coffee
7. Patent US20050242120A1 -- same as last, a slushie, not a Greek-style frappé

My search didn't bring up the Cardiffmet document or the Spandidos document in the first page, but let's look at them:

1. Cardiffmet -- no accent, but doesn't define what it means by frappe, and I have no idea what "frappe" means in Cardiff, Wales. In fact, they seem to be using frappe as a short form of frappucino.
2. Spandidos -- one mention of frappe without accent, but doesn't define it! Also, authors are from Ankara, presumably not native English speakers. Their taxonomization of coffee types is inconsistent and under-specified, so it's not clear what exactly they're talking about.

Let's instead try Book search, which generally brings up reliable sources. Almost all the results for "frappe coffee" are about variants of frappuccino, not about the instant coffee drink, but some do mention the Greek frappé:

1. Daniel Young -- mentions Greek frappé explicitly, spells it with accent
2. Les Ilagan -- not about Greek-style frappé, and anyway is self-published (not RS)
3. Anette Moldvaer -- doesn't mention Greek-style frappé, but consistently uses accent for the other styles

So then I searched for [greek frappe coffee]

1. Daniel Young (same as above) -- with accent
2. Karayanis spells it "Kafe Frappe" phonetically, italicizing it to show that it's not English
3. Bostock -- with accent
4. Tzomakas Frappedia: The Coffee ala Greek Style. self-published, not RS -- inconsistent, spells it both with and without accent
5. C. L. Stone -- clearly the Greek style, mentioned without accent -- not clear what Arcato Publishing is
6. Bostock -- duplicate
7. Jarvis -- with accent
8. "An American", 1909, obviously not about the Greek drink
9. Rough Guides -- with accent
10. Willett -- with accent
11. Lauren Smith -- not a good source, but is with accent

Now let's see how the Nestlé spells it. They consistently spell it Nescafé Frappé, with an accent. [1]

From all this, it looks like the spelling with the accent seems to be more common in reliable sources. But it's hard to get a good, unbiased sample of reliable sources. --Macrakis (talk) 20:48, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Okay this is a lot, so first off, kudos to you for digging into this totally pedantic topic, I love these kinds of discussions. Looking at this list of titles in the order they appear on google page is useful for finding them again, but I think looking at them in order of publication will help to make clear any changing trends in usage, which I think is key to what we're talking about. Before I dig into what bellow, lets quickly address Nestlé's usage. I don't think we can count this as an English usage. Nestlé is a French-Swiss company and I feel confident saying they are using the french word frappé here. Anyway...

Below I've reordered all the publications you reference in order of original publication and included their titles to make it easier to track them down. I also included one that appeared on my first page results which you didn't mention, though it's not a particularly useful source. I've marked it with an '*'. For each entry, I've labeled their usage of the word as well as the presence of an accent, tone, or nothing. Their usage was determined as either being English (meaning no special formatting) or Non-English (meaning bolded, italicized, or put into quotes) and is based on their first usage. I further broke "Non-English" into Greek or French if the context allowed. After this, I noted if the word appears with an accent, a tone (in the case of Greek usages), or nothing. At the end of each line, I added a little "key". The formating is "X | X" where the first X denotes usage as E, NE, G, or F (English, Non-English, Greek, or French); and the second X denotes the presence of the accent as A, T, N (accent, tone, none).

Only 5 publications on the list come from the last decade and of those 3 are travel guides (2 of which are the same text republished), 1 is self-published and I was not able to preview it, and 1 is an "adult fiction" book. So in reality, we're looking at 3 actual data points two of which are the same specific kind of writing (travel guides). To help bulk up recent data, I refined the search to only publications since 2010 and only books with previews. Ignoring the publications already on the list I added below list the first 5 publications which are clearly talking about greek frappes and the relevant info.

1. Lauren Smith – didn't show up at all on my search, since she's a bad source I won't search for her.
2. 1909 An American – ignoring for obvious reasons.
3. 2000 Willett Greek Islands – Treats as English. With accent. E | A
4. 2015 (republished from 1982) Rough Guides, The Rough Guide to Greece ( (text is identical at least as far back as 2002 no preview to check the text farther back)) – Treats as Greek (bolded as "kafés frappé"). With tone. G | T
5. *2002 Indian Coffee, Bulletin of the Indian Coffee Board – Treets as English. Maybe no accent? Can't tell for sure, the preview is bad. E | ?
6. 2002 (no author published by Lonely Planet), Greece – Treats as English. With Accent. E | A
7. 2004 Jarvis, Time out Athens – Treats as English. With accent. E | A
8. 2008 Karayanis, Regional Greek Cooking –Treats treats as Greek ("kafe frappe"). No accent. G | N
9. 2009 Daniel Young, Coffee Love – Treats the word as French. Defines it as French on page 86, then considers the Greek frappe a "Greek version of the french frappé". F | A
10. 2010 Bostock, Greece: The Peloponnese (travel guide) – Treats as non-English (italicized). With accent. NE | A
11. 2019 (republish from 2010) Bostock, Greece: the Peloponnese (travel guide) – I think treats as English (Unlike in original publication). With accent. E | A
12. 2011 Fodor's Greek Islands (Travel guide) – Treats as English, though seems to be referencing the specific name brand of "Nescafé Frappé". With accent. E | A
13. 2015 Tzomakas (self-published) – I can't see any preview I have no idea. ? | ?
14. 2016 C. L. Stone, The Academy - First Kiss – Treats as English. No accent. E | N
    

Aditional Recent publications:

1. 2010 Vassilis Nitsiakos, On the Border – Treats as English. No Accent. E | N
2. 2011boo– Treats as English No accent. E | N
3. 2011 Jeanne Fuchs, The Road to Epidauros – Treats as Greek ("Kafé Frappé"). With tone. G | T
4. 2014 Yvette Manessis Corporon, When the Cypress Whispers – Treats as English. Without Accent. E | N
5. 2014 Barbara Letts Blodgett, Light and Shadow – Treats as "Greek" ("Caféfrappe"). IDK how to categorize this one. G | ?

If we strip this information down to just pub. dates and keys (I've noted the 2 travel guides with a "(TG)") and look specifically at Egnlish usage in the last decade (Including the Bostock republication) we are left with this list:

1. 2019 (2010) E | A (Bostock NE) (TG)
2. 2010 E | N
3. 2011 E | A (TG)
4. 2011 E | N
5. 2014 E | N
6. 2016 E | N

What I see in these data is that, at least based on this list, it's only the travel guides still using the accent and general usage is moving towards no accent. To see if this is representative of other modern results it might be helpful to look at how the number of google results compares. I don't know exactly how google handles accents so maybe this is useless, but here's what the numbers look like:

• Google All Searches

• 3,460,000 – Searched for: greek frappe coffee
• 2,830,000 – Searched for: greek frappé coffee
• 848,000 – Searched for: greek "frappe" coffee
• 164,000 – Searched for: greek "frappé" coffee

• Google News Searches

• 6,840 – Searched for: greek frappe coffee
• 6,200 – Searched for: greek frappé coffee
• 1,100 – Searched for: greek "frappe" coffee
• 434 – Searched for: greek "frappé" coffee

• Google Books Searches

• 2,640 – Searched for: greek frappe coffee
• 1,850 – Searched for: greek frappé coffee
• 1,590 – Searched for: greek "frappe" coffee
• 1,320 – Searched for: greek "frappé" coffee

In all cases, there are more results for an accentless usage. I'm curious to hear what you make of all this, to me, it seems to point to "frappe" becoming the norm while linguistically conservative publications (like the NYT which just published an article yesterday using frappé but linking to a source which uses frappe) and publications trying to emphasize the word's foreignness or pronunciation (such as travel guides) are holding on to "frappé". --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 15:59, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Nestlé is indeed a Swiss multinational. Their product marketing is customized for each market. If they spell it "frappé" for the English-speaking market, it's not because that's the French spelling!

Google book search is a nice source, though not perfect. Still, you have to be careful here, too. For example, many writers don't use accents when writing in all caps (FRAPPE).

Google Web search counts are highly unreliable for multiple reasons.

It is particularly unlikely that Google is reliable in differentiating words with and without accents.

Besides that, searching for [greek frappe coffee] only says that you're looking for documents that include the word "Greek", the word "frappe", and the word "coffee", not necessarily close to one another. In fact, Google's search is actually "soft", so all three words might not be present.

Six data points looks rather thin. I would rather depend on standard secondary sources than try to do our own research on which is the common spelling when the stats are so equivocal, but in this case, the standard sources (M-W, OED) haven't caught up.... My personal preference remains to use the accent, but I concede that I don't have any strong arguments for that. --Macrakis (talk) 17:28, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell Nestlé uses the "Nestlé Frappé" branding exclusively in its Greek markets, the only references I can find to it online always have Greek on the container, like in the example you gave. In my personal experience, that branding only appears in America when imported to Greek markets from Greece. I've always assumed that in this context they were using the French word because of the french influence within the company and the etymology of the Greek word. I suppose it could be English... but that doesn't really make any sense to me. It also appears to always be treated as a brand name (in your source we see its trademarked wit a "Ⓡ"). All of which is to say, I don't think how Nestlé spells it is relevant to how its spelled in English or how we should spell it.

As for the Google results, I agree they do not make for very strong or reliable points (especially with this nuance) and mostly included them to show that they don't disagree with our book list. I also agree that six data points are not enough to make a conclusion. I did start to look at how recent news stories use the word in reference to Greek frappes and found that it was seemingly a toss-up with plenty using both forms and, in many cases, using one form and linking to a source that uses the other. So while I feel confident saying that trends are moving away from the accented form, I also don't have any legitimately citable evidence that "frappe" is now the norm. Something else to consider is that Wikipedia probably acting as a source for many more recent publications, so there may be a bit of a dog eating its own tail going on.

My preferences would be to spell it without an accent (given that it seems like the growing trend) and make a reference to the accented spelling at the head of the article (given that it's clearly still used and arguably the 'standard').... But I acknowledge we don't have particularly strong evidence for usage and that the standard sources, as well as the steady-state of this page, are against me. So given all that I don't think I have the right to demand any change unless other editors weigh-in or better sources can be found.

I'm happy enough with the continued use of "frappé" as long as we can at least a reference to the fact that "frappe" is a common alternate spelling. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 19:35, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! Thanks for the constructive collaboration. --Macrakis (talk) 22:10, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Agreed! Here's to friendly discussions about minutia! --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 13:03, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of which, OED says "Use of minutia with plural agreement perhaps arises from the word being misunderstood as the plural of a Latin word in -um." That is, they record the fact that it's sometimes used that way, but they note that it's etymologically incorrect. More prescriptive sources, like the 1996 and 2015 editions of Fowler, aren't as shy: "minutiae ... The singular form, rarely called for, is minutia". 😏 --Macrakis (talk) 15:18, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Mixer

Back to more serious issues. 😀

• Article currently says that a frappé is made with "an electric mixer (e.g., a hand mixer)". In English, "electric mixer" usually means a Mixer (appliance), used for making cake batter, etc., and a "hand mixer" is the hand-held version of that, which surely isn't being used to make frappé coffee. I haven't been to Greece for a few years, but I imagine that what is intended here is rather a milkshake machine, an immersion blender, or a blender.
• The section on the physics of the frothy top is (a) too detailed and (b) follows its source much too closely. I plan to cut down the detail.

@Skoulikomirmigotripa:, will you be restoring the material of mine you overwrote in your edit? --Macrakis (talk) 22:10, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

First to the changes I overwrote: Comparing the current version with the version right before I overwrote you, I think I've restored all of the changes that still make sense with the exception of the changes you made to the Greek variations and terminology section. I don't love some of these changes and, if it's okay with you, I'd rather work together on this section (I'll make a Talk section about it). To be clear, I'm not trying to be a dick about anything! If there are any other changes you feel I've failed to revert, please point them out specifically, and I'll do my best to work them back in. So with that out of the way, on to mixers and physics!

1. Yes, an electric mixer is absolutely the wrong term for this. In the home, and in many smaller commercial settings an electric Milk frother is far and away the most common tool used, sometimes battery-powered but more often plug-in as they are more powerful. A lot of times these frothers are sold with a little wire stand that allows you to use them sort of like a milkshake machine. In a commercial setting where making frappes are a big part of their business, like beach bars and coffee shops, it's now pretty common to have a proper commercial machine like a milkshake machine. I've never worked at a place in America with a milkshake machine, so I don't know them very well, but I've worked in many cafes/bars in Greece I think the machines we have are a bit different than the milkshake machine being described in the article. From the looks of it less powerful, smaller, and with a different form factor. So, Idk if you would actually call them a "milkshake machine" in English (in Greek we just call them Frappe machines) but that article is definitely a closer match than an electric mixer. I support linking to both the milkshake machine and milk frother articles.

1. As for the physics section. I agree solidly on point B, it needs to be made less like its source. As for point B (about its detail), I agree its more detailed than is needed in a coffee article.... though, and I'm probably biased here because fluid dynamics is part of what I study and I'm a nerd, I do find it very interesting and wouldn't want to see the section cut down too, too much. I think the interesting physics going on is what differentiates the frappe from just cold instant coffee and I'd want enough detail in the section to make that clear. But I say go ahead and alter/cut it and we can talk about it as it goes. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 14:02, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Over written eddits in the Greek variations and terminology section

The main issues I have with these edits are the use of a "part : part" ratio. While I'm usually a fan of reducing drink recipes to their parts ratios, I don't think it works well here. I particularly don't love ": no sugar" which I don't think looks good at all. The other thing is that the listed tsp amounts are indeed the very standardized measurements used. Maybe "tsp" isn't the most correct unit to use because usually a heaping barspoon is used for each scoop, but (and I know this is technically original research) having taught many American friends how to make a good frappe, I can say with some certainty that heaping barspoons and tsp are good matches. I think these measurements are more useful to someone trying to learn how to make a frappe than the ratios alone, so I'm in favor of keeping them in the article.

The other little point in your changes that I'd like to quibble over is the use of "usually" or "traditionally" for the use of evaporated milk. Historically evaporated milk was always used in frappes because its what many Greeks used for most everything. Nowadays I'm it's really fair to say that evaporated milk is still the "usual" since many cafes now offer "fancier" coffees they have regular milks on hand all the time and often that is what they'll use to make a frappe. Last time I was in Greece (a few months ago) I noticed that in Athens at least regular milk seems to be the norm in many cafes.

Anyway, those are my two main disagreements. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 14:33, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

I really doubt that American standard teaspoons are being used, and as you say, a heaping spoonful is not standardized. Why don't we simply say "spoonful"? Keep in mind that WP is not supposed to be a cookbook that can teach someone to make a dish.

I'm not sure I understand your objection to "no sugar".

"Traditionally" is a much-overused word on Wikipedia, implying some sort of well-defined tradition (see my essay on the topic). If we want to say that evaporated was formerly commonly used, and that fresh milk is now usually used, that's fine with me. But if all we're saying is that when evaporated milk was more common, evaporated was used, and now that fresh milk is more common, fresh is used, why bother to say it at all?

Best, --Macrakis (talk) 19:02, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, the standard tsp is not the measurement used in Greece. Τhe actual measurement used in Greece is the "κουταλάκια του γλυκού" (sweet spoon) which is the Greek equivalent to the tsp measurement (as opposed to a κουταλιά της σούπας (soup spoon) which is the Tbsp equivalent. While in my experience they are interchangeable for tsp/Tbsp, I'm almost certain there is no actual standardization for the Greek measurements. I'm perfectly happy with just saying spoonful.

My issue with the "no sugar" (and maybe this is pedantic) is that as far "1 : no" is not a ratio. It should really say "1: 0 sugar" but that's no good either.

I hear your point about traditionally being overused. Given the points in you (well written) essay am happy to change it. The reason I pushed for it is that, there's been push back from people about places moving away from using evaporated milk and many make a point of requesting evaporated milk explicitly if a cafe makes it with fresh milk, but those are really reasons to use the term "traditional" here. Though, having given this more thought, It might make more sense to drop the specification all together in this section and instead mention it in the preparation or history sections? It's not really needed here.

Would it be fair to call the use "original" given that the origin of the drink is so well known?

Cheers, --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 23:23, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

My guess is that kafeneia use whatever milk is easily and commonly available to them, whether it's evaporated milk (NOYNOY Πλήρες), sweetened condensed milk (NOYNOY Ζαχαρούχο), UHT milk, or fresh milk. Which one is most common has changed over time. In the 1960's, UHT milk didn't exist and fresh milk was uncommon; if I remember correctly, the most common form of milk was the sweetened ΝΟΥΝΟΥ. Nowadays, it might be any of these. I doubt we can find a WP:Reliable Source documenting which kind of milk was used when, or even which kind(s) of milk are most common today, so it's probably best to just say "milk".

Re "original", the article currently says that it was made with water only, not milk at all! --Macrakis (talk) 19:43, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Good point about the original recipe! Is that true about sweetened Nounou being the standard in back in the 60's?? As someone who has only been around since the 80's that seems crazy! I feel like evaporated milk ought to mentioned somewhere in the article given how frequently it's referenced as the standard milk used in stories and recipes about frappes. The LA times article referenced here calls it's use "ubiquitous" in 2004, for example. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 21:26, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

I remember the sweetened Nounou, but I may be wrong. Most people also don't know the difference between "condensed" and "evaporated" milk, anyway. If the preponderance of recipes and articles about frappé coffee mentions evaporated, fine! Personal experience, on the other hand, is not a good guide. For all I know, maybe they use sweetened Nounou in Poros, unsweetened Nounou in Paros, fresh milk in Pyrgos, and UHT milk in Patmos. --Macrakis (talk) 14:50, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Nescafé frappé

If I remember correctly, the most common name in 1970-1985 was not "café frappé", but "Nescafé frappé". I don't know if that's still the case, but Νεσκαφέ φραπέ still shows up in recent documents on the web. Shouldn't that name be mentioned, even if it is no longer the most common name? --Macrakis (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I would no. I've never heard of Νεσκαφέ φραπέ being used for the drink, except to specify the brand of coffee being used. Like how an American might say "a Folger's coffee". I assume the term is showing up on places because of this. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 19:33, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

OK, if it's no longer in use, I guess it's of historical interest only.

But it wasn't a matter of specifying a brand -- it was the opposite: Nescafé was a genericized trademark for instant coffee in Greece, the way in Italy they say caffè HAG for decaf. --Macrakis (talk) 19:59, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

It turns out that the Internet Archive finds 69 hits for ["frappe coffee"], 28 for ["nescafe frappe"], and 8 for ["greek frappe"].

Subtracting out the chess opening (Nescafé Frappé Attack) and the ads leaves 20 hits for ["nescafe frappe"], many of them novels set in Greece. On the other hand, most of the hits for ["frappe coffee"] are not about the Greek-style drink at all.

So I think there's a good case for including that name. --Macrakis (talk) 17:49, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Yep, I'm convinced. The edits look great. --Skoulikomirmigotripa (talk) 18:30, 24 April 2020 (UTC)