Talk:Lebanon

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2023

There is hateful content in the last paragraph of the Lebanon article's introduction. In the sentence "Despite the country's small size,[25] Lebanese culture is renowned..." The words "Lebanese culture" links to 'the culture of Lebanon page', however when one hovers over the link, the preview page reads: 'Lebanon sucks my but u fT LOSER.' This should be changed, and whoever made the page edit banned. Ethelepson (talk) 04:08, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

 Already done Hyphenation Expert (talk) 04:42, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the jumhuriyah

The infobox gives the pronunciation al-jumhūrīyah al-Lubnānīyah. Is this not an example of the construct state, where the tāʼ marbūṭa should be pronounced /t/, giving al-jumhūrīyat? Largoplazo (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Nope, it's simple adjectival agreement here. It would be a possessive contruct (and therefore transform into an -at ending) only if there were no al- in front of the jumhuriyah. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:05, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Coat of Arms

Lebanon uses the green cedar as a de facto emblem, it is used on ID Cards, passports, embassies... 178.135.3.140 (talk) 18:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Arms of Lebanon.png or Coat of arms of Lebanon.svg 178.135.3.140 (talk) 18:24, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

• @Largoplazo: said in an edit comment that this issue "is being discussed at length in the talk page"; I can't see this discussion and wonder if a link could be provided? Furius (talk) 14:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  I was mistaken. I saw this section and was lumping it together with the dispute carried in edit summaries and the more recent deletion nomination Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Coat of arms of Lebanon. Suffice it to say, whether Lebanon has a coat of arms has been disputed here and no reliable source has been supplied to show that it has one. (The list of purely verbal descriptions of coats of arms on the website of the Society for Creative Anachronism, a historical role-play organization, that has been cited here and is also cited by the other source that's been cited here is not a reliable source.) Largoplazo (talk) 17:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Enough evidence has been added to the Coat of arms of Lebanon page, so it should be okay to add the coat of arms of the emblem to the Lebanon page. Thank you. 213.175.191.102 (talk) 19:17, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  or the emblem* 213.175.191.102 (talk) 19:17, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2023

Add the coat of arms of Lebanon 76.113.236.36 (talk) 20:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: As you can see above, tThis is already being debated, as can be seen in the article's history and by virtue of the deletion nomination for Coat of arms of Lebanon, and no one has supplied genuine evidence that the country has an official coat of arms. Largoplazo (talk) 21:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Improve Draft:Languages of Lebanon

Hi, I started a draft, Draft:Languages of Lebanon, which merged content from English language in Lebanon, French language in Lebanon, Levantine Arabic, Lebanese Arabic and this page, but also added some information that's not on any of these pages. I'd love if you could help me improve it. FunLater (talk) 16:01, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Liniking problem

I cannot get the preview text to show up whenever I hover over with my cursor on a link to this page. Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 18:10, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

In your preferences, go to "Appearance" and toggle on "Enable page previews"; it's under "Reading preferences". :) FunLater (talk) 01:45, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

That isn't it, it's specifically links to this article. Actually, to many articles. There seem to be one or more templates that, when they appear in front of the lead paragraph, prevent the lead paragraph from appearing in the Popups preview. This is one of those cases: I went to Beirut, hovered over the Lebanon link, and got only the metadata, nothing from the lead. Hovering over other links, I mostly see the opening text after the metadata in the Popups popup, but another link that doesn't provide the opening text is Economy of Lebanon.

That's when I'm logged in; I browsed to the Beirut article while not logged in, and the opening text was displayed (but not the metadata, which is reserved for logged-in users). It's a greater problem than can be resolved on this talk page, it's a technical problem that should be referred to the Wikipedia talk:Tools/Navigation popups. Largoplazo (talk) 03:23, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I just reported it. Largoplazo (talk) 03:30, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I misunderstood "a link to this page" as "a link on this page".

Previews of this page are working for me. It was probably the blank line you removed. FunLater (talk) 03:36, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually, the preview of economy of Lebanon is also showing for me. FunLater (talk) 03:48, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

It works now, thanks =). Rugoconites Tenuirugosus (talk) 09:10, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Suggested Revision for Lebanese Arabic Pronunciation IPA

I'd like to propose a nuanced edit regarding the Lebanese Arabic pronunciation IPA of the country. Specifically, I recommend changing the current representation "[lɪbˈneːn]" to "[ləbˈneːn]. In the context of representing the first vowel sound, it is more accurate to use the schwa ([ə]) symbol representing a mid central vowel sound. Unstressed vowels, such as the one found in 'Lebanon,' often exhibit regional and personal variations, ranging from [lub'ne:n] to [lib'ne:n]. Therefore, employing the schwa ([ə]) serves as a neutral and appropriate choice, accommodating these linguistic differences while maintaining precision and clarity in the pronunciation guide. Valleygardens (talk) 18:21, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

System of government

According to the constitution of Lebanon, the system of government is a parliamentary republic. 185.76.178.100 (talk) 10:04, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Right now the infobox says parliamentary republic and cites to the constitution. The article says parliamentary democracy - was this what you were concerned about? According to the page parliamentary democracy, it is basically a parliamentary system, so using it in this context isn't incorrect I feel. 23impartial (talk) 17:36, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Coat of Arms 2

The Coat of arms of Lebanon page has been developed enough, so i guess it should be okay putting the coat of arms on this page. 185.76.178.100 (talk) 10:06, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

or putting the cedar emblem next to the flag, exactly like the France page. The French emblem is used in a de facto capacity, so is the Lebanese emblem and coat of arms. 178.135.8.101 (talk) 16:59, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

In support of this. WeaponizingArchitecture | scream at me 12:19, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Same here, in support of the cedar tree. It's a very distinct image and only associated with Lebanon Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 07:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

It hasn't really changed very much. It seems that there is still no specific source stating that this symbol is the country's coat of arms. It would be good to hear from participants in the earlier discussion @Largoplazo; @Mir Novov; @Beshogur; @Mnmazur; @Koavf; @LaundryPizza03. Furius (talk) 08:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if it's the coat of arms or not. Every country has a symbol next to their flag except for Lebanon. France has "Emblem", I suggest the cedar tree be put back as "Emblem" if the only problem is that it's not the coat of arms. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 08:50, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Other stuff exists is not an argument. Beshogur (talk) 10:48, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

If France doesn't actually have an emblem, then that article should also not pretend that it does. If every other country shows some symbol because every other country has an official coat of arms or emblem, while Lebanon doesn't, then this article should not. The cedar is obviously a common motif used in representations of Lebanon (such as the flag), but is it, itself, considered an emblem? If not, then we shouldn't present it as such. Largoplazo (talk) 10:59, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

It's literally called Cedrus libani in scientific notation, meaning cedar of Lebanon. And Wikipedia has a line of code in the infobox for symbols that are not the coat of arms for this very situation:

symbol_type = emblem, seal, etc (if not a coat of arms)

Also, CIA says that "the green cedar tree is the symbol of Lebanon and represents eternity, steadiness, happiness, and prosperity" https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/lebanon/flag Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Also mentioned in the Bible many times notably during the building of Solomon's temple in 1 Kings 5:

"“So give orders that cedars of Lebanon be cut for me. My men will work with yours, and I will pay you for your men whatever wages you set. You know that we have no one so skilled in felling timber as the Sidonians.”"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%205-6&version=NIV

And in Psalms:

"The trees of the Lord are well watered, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+104&version=NIV Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:34, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm taking issue with your first point. I'm going to suppose you don't think that any of Camellia sinensis, Eriocheir sinensis, Streptococcus sinensis, or Clonorchis sinensis is an emblem of China, or that they are, respectively, that country's official plant, crustacean, bacterium, or parasite. Largoplazo (talk) 11:39, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Are those symbols on the Chinese flag? Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:47, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Or coins?

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces3898.html Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Or paper bills?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_pound#/media/File:Billet_de_1000_livres_libanaises.jpg Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 11:58, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

As I explicitly said, I wasn't addressing any of those points, only the one about the taxonomic nomenclature. Which was an invalid point, as I illustrated. Largoplazo (talk) 12:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

You won't address the point as it stands in context because you don't have an argument against it other than semantics. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 02:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

"Semantics"? You raised the point about the taxonomic name. If it was just "semantics", then why did you raise it?

As for why I didn't address any of your other points: There is no principle that "When somebody makes several points, thou shalt not address any of those points unless thou addressest all of those points." You made one point that was bad outright that I chose to address. Your other points aren't relevant to my comment on that point; I am not obliged to address the other points; and you appear to have chosen to harangue me on all the points I didn't address to avoid acknowledging my remark about that one point. Largoplazo (talk) 12:07, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

It was raised in context along with other points you intentionally chose not to see. You didn't answer the question either, so I'll ask again, are the Chinese bugs and other creatures on the Chinese flag?

I'll wait. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 00:11, 16 October 2023 (UTC):::::::::::::I saw all your points. But it seems that my point about how choosing to address one of your points doesn't obligate me to address any of the others didn't register with you. So stop talking to me as though I'm under such an obligation. By the way, 7 billion other people in the world also haven't addressed all your points. Why don't you also yell at them? Largoplazo (talk) 02:33, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Yeah stop spamming stuff. Beshogur (talk) 15:23, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Spamming links and references? That's just called research. How about let the conversation happen instead of trying to shut everything down. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 02:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

The taxonomic nomenclature is irrelevant. The Bible is very irrelevant, since the Republic of Lebanon didn't exist then. Coins and money are also irrelevant, since many countries have symbols on their coinage without that being their coat of arms. (In my home country of New Zealand, for example, the silver fern is a very widely used national symbol in private and public contexts - including the passport! - but all of these usages are informal; it is not the coat of arms / official national symbol. The official coat of arms which appears in the infobox of WP's article on New Zealand is, in fact, very rarely seen or used).

The CIA world factbook is explaining why the symbol appears on the flag, it does not establish that it is an official symbol in other contexts. So far, all we've had are examples of it being used in particular instances (extrapolating from those to the claim that the cedar is the official coat of arms/symbol/emblem of Lebanon is WP:OR). If the cedar (separate from the flag) is an official symbol/emblem/coat of arms of Lebanon, it should be very easy to point to WP:RS that explicitly say that it is an official symbol/emblem/coat of arms of Lebanon. It is striking that none of the proponents of this addition have been able to cite such a source. Furius (talk) 14:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources are given. Calling them irrelevant doesn't make them irrelevant. You have to make an argument as to why that is the case other than "New Zealand has an official coat of arms and that's why the silver fern isn't displayed". As far as I'm concerned, the people opposing this are being exceptionally unreasonable. The symbol of the green cedar tree is literally everywhere throughout the country, all over the flag, the currency, the websites, things that are mentioned about the country now and throughout history - in ancient texts and modern texts. How much more do you need? Do you need the Lebanese government to explicitly state that the cedar tree is a symbol of Lebanon? Is that the only criteria? Is there no case for an obvious de facto symbol that is used throughout the world for the country?Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 02:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Here's another source, Lebanon's country profile at the Library of Congress:

https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/master/frd/frdcstdy/le/lebanoncountryst00coll/lebanoncountryst00coll.pdf

"On the cover: Representing Lebanon's tragic civil strife, a

cedar, the national symbol, is shown split in two." Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 03:58, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Oh now it's split in two now? Do we have a real source? Preferably Libanese. Beshogur (talk) 04:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Just yet another example. Here's one more in the national anthem:

"Her glory – her cedar, her symbol for eternity."

What's your argument again? The cedar can't be the symbol of the country because it is only on the flag, the currency, in the national anthem, on every government symbol, it's scientific name, in the Bible, in basically every article mentioning Lebanon..... but it's not explicitly stated word-for-word how you want it to be? Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 09:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

No it's not. Full of original research. Beshogur (talk) 10:49, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

According to who? Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 02:14, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

According to wp:or. Beshogur (talk) 15:31, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Prove it. Wkpdsrnm2023 (talk) 09:12, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

@Largoplazo I found some sources proving that it is indeed the unofficial coat of arms of Lebanon. It is mentioned and illustrated in page 64 of the book “Guide to the flags of the world” [1]. It is also illustrated on page 62 of “The world of flags: a pictorial history” [2]. 71.239.86.150 (talk) 14:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Area rank in Asia

In the introductory paragraph it is stated that Lebanon is the second smallest country in Asia. However, in the linked list of countries by area several more asian countries are listed as smaller.

From what I see, the Maldives, Singapore, Bahrain, and Brunei are all smaller, which would make Lebanon the fifth smallest country in Asia. 134.61.71.115 (talk) 12:48, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2023

Ethnicity Changed from 95% arab to 40% Phoenician and 55% arab Rodolph.Saïd (talk) 10:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

It is unsourced. JJNito197 (talk) 10:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Regarding Nationality of Authors

Two of the most famous Brazilian authors: Raduan Nassar and Milton Hatoum are both of Lebanese descent. That said I'm not sure if either had Lebanese citizenship. In order to be included under the Literature Section, should the author be of confirmed Lebanese citizenship or is Lebanese descent enough? Alcibiades979 (talk) 18:56, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I would think that either should be fine, as long as that Lebanese connection is notable and mentioned in good sources. 23impartial (talk) 15:05, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Edits by user:Smint34

There seems to be an edit war over this. I think I have some sympathy with Smint34's edit but it should be agreed here. Pinging User:Duvasee. DeCausa (talk) 21:51, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Lebanon was home to Phoenicia?

Phoenicia predates Lebanon, so if Wikipedia is going to use this non-encyclopedic metaphor "home", ancient Phoenicia is now "home" to what is currently being called "Lebanon". Plus the source give doesn't even say these words, and the source is also not encyclopedic, even if it is somehow associated with Princeton. Describing an ancient trade as coming from the "innards" of snails is one example of the very casual and chatty tone of the source and so I doubt it's use for Wikipedia in any way, for factual reasons, for prioritization of topics (meaning elevating that which is entertaining over that which is objectively significant), and in general a sloppy, half-assed column that would be more appropriately found in a news magazine like "People", and not being used as source material for an encyclopedia. Meaning that, I read the Wikipedia Article, and I still don't know the history of the areas of the Middle East that is now known as "Lebanon", no matter what words it might be currently using, I don't trust them, or the Article.

2603:8081:3A00:30DF:A5AB:9BE9:BAED:623B (talk) 21:56, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Pedantic nonsense. Ancient Phoenicia and modern Lebanon closely overlap. Phoenician purple dye was indeed made from the innards of murex sea snails. These are both facts. A place can be "home to" something older than itself (eg most museums are home to old artefacts). Colloquial language (which "innards" isn't, really...) or an interest in entertainment doesn't necessarily make a source unreliable. Furius (talk) 08:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

To be fair "home to Phoenicia" sounds odd and doesn't really make sense. Looking back it originally said "home to Phoenician civilization" which is a more usual phrase. I've revised it here. DeCausa (talk) 08:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)